“When you see something like that, you never forget it. It’s changes your life in a way that it puts things in perspective. So when you hear other people’s stories about this stuff, I feel inherently like I want to protect them. I want to help them not be attacked for something that they saw, because it’s wrong.”
~Dr. Garry Nolan
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Earth Image Credit: NASA/Goddard/Arizona State University
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Tucker Carlson (TC): Welcome to Tucker Carlson. Today, the crazy thing about the topic of UFOs is how, when you get into it, how really non-crazy a lot of the people who know a lot about the topic turn out to be. They’re kind of the opposite of what you imagine. They’re not fruity conspiracy nuts, a lot of them are just scientists. Garry Nolan is definitely at the top of that list. He’s a Stanford professor, Stanford, PhD. He’s an immunologist. And he has, over the last decade or two, spent a lot of time studying the harmful effects that apparent encounters with UFOs have on the human brain. This is a field of study, and he is at the very top of it. Dr. Garry Nolan, he joins us in studio. Professor, thanks so much for coming on.
Dr. Garry Nolan (GN): Thank you so much.
TC: I was just reading your (Full Bio) again, just to restate the same point, once more: It’s just remarkable, once you get into this topic…I don’t know if mainstream is the word, but it’s not fringe, at all. So just to kind of accentuate that point, explain your background for our viewers, if you would.
GN: So my main job, my day job at Stanford for the last thirty years, has been the development of technologies to look at cancer, and blood. And so, we’ve spun a number of companies and sold a number of companies that we started out in my lab. Two of them are actually on NASDAQ. And the idea has always been that if money is coming in from the National Institutes of Health, we should give back to the public. And so, in the process of developing some of these, we developed an instrument called CyTOF, which is really all about studying blood cells at a deeper level than anybody has been able to do before.
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GN: And so, it was circa 2011 or so when some people from the CIA, and an aerospace company (Nolan has confirmed that this was Dr. Kit Green and Dr. Colm Kelleher ~Joe) came to me to ask me for their help on the analysis of some individuals who had encountered some anomalous objects, they said. And they came to my office, unannounced, and then started laying out pictures and data on the table in front of me. And I honestly thought it was a joke. I thought it was… (cross talk)
TC: You’re a Stanford professor…(laughs), an immunologist, doing medical research and building companies, and all of a sudden, one day the CIA shows up at your office?
GN: Because they had asked around and said, “Okay, we have these people who’ve been injured.” And one of the things that they wanted to do in a complete medical workup of these individuals was to look at the blood. It’s a natural thing to do. If you’re looking for an inflammation, the blood is one of the places you might look to get sort of a more complete list of everything that’s going on in the body. And so, that’s when somebody said, “Well, if you want to do this [and] do it properly, you gotta go talk to this guy Nolan at Stanford because he has the world’s best instrument that he’s developed for doing it.” And that’s what started it.
TC: So what was your view of UFOs/UAPs at the time?
GN: You know, I was kind of a science fiction fan, and I was interested in it as any mainstream individual might have been. But it wasn’t something that I had any kind of focus on in my life.
TC: So you had no deep knowledge of the topic.
GN: No deep knowledge.
TC: Were you surprised that a US government agency was doing this kind of work? I mean, presumably, the question was settled for them.
GN: Yeah.
TC: They didn’t wonder if UFOs were real, they knew at that point, right?
GN: Right. Right. No, of course. I mean, like I said, I mean, at first I thought it was a joke. I mean, I really thought that I was being…somebody was about to put me on Candid Camera, and make a joke of it.
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GN: But as they started showing me the data, and they were deadly serious. I mean, I tried to lure them into making a joke about it. They were deadly serious about it, because they had basically said, at that point, people have died. And so, and then they showed me some brain images of individuals who had been damaged and internal scarring, you could see through MRIs. And, you know, it’s data, it’s unmistakable. You have to say, “Okay, well, what did that?” I can conjecture, or hypothesize about, you know, is it the Russians, is it UFOs or whatever. But the fact is, there is data that says something is happening and so we need to study it. And that’s what a scientist should do.
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TC: Of course! Oh, absolutely! But first, some context. Who were these people who had been injured or killed?
GN: Oh, they were military personnel, people, intelligence agents on the ground, a pilot – a few pilots, actually – who had gotten close enough and they had some sort of effects.
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Important Lue statements about the potential new official UAP program, medical effects on pilots and the consensus in government that UAPs are not Russian or Chinese
👇👇 pic.twitter.com/uoBbF5s4QS— Akam1129 🛸🗞️💥🌍🌱🐶 (@Akam1129) October 2, 2021
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– Pilots possibly suffering from radiation burns
– Pilots losing track of time
– Admirals emailing Lue about swarming UAPs which meant crews had to be kept below deck
– Three U.S presidents briefed
– Royal Family is interested
– Surprising details from foreign nations to come? https://t.co/cjR3ME6LWN— Liberation Times (@LiberationTimes) November 6, 2021
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Lue Elizondo on Fox Business:
"In reality what we think it was,was exposure to high-frequency radiation and as the pilots got closer,they started to experience internal organ damage, specifically,in the human brain"#ufo #ufotwitter #uaptwitter @Akam1129 https://t.co/Iq36RfPgk4— Baptiste Friscourt (@Baptiste_Fri) April 12, 2022
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1 #ufos and Injuries – Hal Puthoff – West Virginia Lecture – 2020
HP: "Now it turns out that one of the side effects of engineering the spacetime metric, to get this kind of flight performance, is that it…we call it…blueshifts the frequencies. All the frequencies that are pic.twitter.com/ogRYQsrgbg
— Joe Murgia (@TheUfoJoe) April 14, 2022
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TC: Gotten close enough to some sort of unknown aircraft.
GN: To some sort of object. One of them, on the ground, as well…walked right up to it and touched it. And actually, his case is pretty famous.
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The Rendlesham Forest Case
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GN: And even Senator McCain was able to come in and help this individual (John Burroughs) because the Army was denying him – was it the Army or the Air Force – was denying him medical benefits. And so, eventually it reached the office of Senator McCain. And he stepped in and forced the Veterans Affairs to…
TC: He walked up and touched it? Can you back up and just tell me…what was the story there?
GN: That was the so-called Rendlesham Forest case in England, where objects were seen over the bunkers where the nuclear weapons were stored. And things were seen…
TC: In the 70s?
GN: In the 70s or so, yeah. There’s quite a few documentaries on it. But the individuals who were actually there, I know one of them quite well (once again, John Burroughs). And he was the person who was basically denied benefits and his medical records were classified for quite a while. They wouldn’t let anything out about him. Why?
TC: So he touched this object?
GN: Yeah.
(It was Jim Penniston, co-author of “The Rendlesham Enigma,” who says he touched the craft. ~Joe)
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TC: Did he describe the object?
GN: Yeah, he described the object as basically about four or five feet across, with strange writing on it. I don’t know. I mean, it’s a longtime story.
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GN: I don’t try too much to get into the stories and to the ancient literature because there’s so many arguments and mis and disinformation about it. I’m more interested in: Let’s collect new data and study it, right? Let’s collate the data in a way and try to convince other scientists that the data is real, not that a conclusion is real. So, I try to stay away from that because there’s plenty of arguments and historians who know how to do that.
TC: You stay right in your lane.
GN: I stay in my lane because that’s what I’m good at!
TC: Yeah. Good call.
GN: So, just stay away from it.
TC: So this man, specifically, military personnel who touched this object in the woods near a nuclear bunker in Great Britain, what happened to him?
GN: He had all kinds of…he had nausea, he had long-term consequences to his heart. Now, whether any of this was directly caused by the object or not is open to debate. But, in the immediate aftermath of the interaction that he had with it, there were medical consequences. So, you’d have to imagine that somewhere back then, something happened to him that he’s still dealing with, years later. I mean,
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GN: But, you know, the reason why that’s important is because, you know, people’s lives were ruined, right? People’s careers were derailed. And it’s not that we need to go back and fix all of that, and, you know, come up with some kind of, you know, monetary compensation for those individuals. But I think, visa vie, the PTSD issue, sometimes people just want to know that when they were called crazy, that somebody finally says, “You weren’t.”
TC: Of course.
GN: But going forward, now, I mean, we might not be able to fix the past, but let’s not recreate the past moving forward.
TC: And the trust is worth telling for its own sake.
GN: Yeah.
TC: It’s a virtue to tell the truth, period.
GN: And, you know, it’s interesting, I think. You know, I go around, and I will talk to people about this issue. So many people have not heard about this, that it kind of surprises me in a way because, you know, I would be interested in it. But then I realized, if it isn’t affecting the bread and butter issues at their table every day, why should they care, right? And so, you know, I think that those of us who are in the middle of it, need to realize that we do live in a bit of a bubble, and that the rest of the world is trying to just survive. And whether or not there are aliens or whatever, it’s not going to change…when it changes their lives, then they might pay attention, right? So, I mean, it is still something which the public finds fascinating, and, you know, if you do a public survey of it, if you were to list that amongst the things that: Do you think this is interesting? People would check, “Yes, it’s interesting.” But they aren’t actively going out and seeking answers yet. Except it’s begun now to open up to the point where the government has said, “Yes, it’s okay.” Now scientists are saying, “Okay, it’s okay now.” All the people who were kind of in the closet are now coming out and saying…
TC: But it’s been almost eighty years! And even before that, I mean, pilots throughout the Second World War, they called them Foo Fighters, as you know.
GN: Yes, right.
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TC: So what we’re seeing is this entire edifice of lies starting to crack.
GN: Right.
TC: And clearly, it’s coming down. But, you know, that disinformation manufactured by propagandists in the U.S. government has been taken as truth for generations.
GN: Right, right.
TC: So, knowing that…and that’s true, we know that.
GN: Yeah.
TC: Does it get you reassessing anything else we think we know?
GN: Uh…yes, in some ways (laughs).
TC: (laughs) Like, if they lied about it, what else did they lie about?
GN: But I’m not sure I want to say it here.
TC: (laughs) Okay, That’s a…I totally get it. But the answer, “Yes,” is enough. So it has?
GN: Yes, yes. I think that the nature of our reality is yet to be fully understood (GN smiles and TC laughs). I think that there’s a lot of things that people think are fringe that appear to have some evidence. And my interest, frankly, has been: Can I place this fringe object in the mainstream of science, right? Can I come up with some kind of explanation about how this weird stuff people think is happening, can be real, right? Not that I have to believe it, but what I want to do is place it into our physics or find a bridge and a connection to it, so that we can explain it. Now, what’s good about all of these things is that money now is starting to appear, right? I mean, New Jersey actually now put out a postdoctoral fellowship for people to study UAPs. The state of New Jersey, right?
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Gotta love New Jersey! @jackantonoff @NewJerseyDOE #ufotwitter #UFO #UFOs #UAP #UAPtransparency #UAPtwitter
Article: https://t.co/i8IpptwgO6 pic.twitter.com/vKAiaGtFqW
— Dan Zetterström (@TheZignal) May 19, 2022
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GN: I’m involved with, you know, trying to set up resources to be able to fund researchers for this kind of stuff. Because, you know, scientists inherently will follow the money. I can’t take my NIH dollars and go study UFOs, right? I mean, I have a certain box I have to stay in. But I do have money from an endowed chair that I have, which I can do anything I want with. It’s $400,000 a year. And I have talked to the donors, and they’re fine with me using some of this to study UFOs, right? So I have the money to do it. I also spent a lot of money on my own pocket on it. But now that there is going to be, let’s say, validation, you know, the National Science Foundation could get involved. Lockheed might want to.
TC: Yes.
GN: One of the things that’s actually in this new bill is calling for…I think they use the word, “A cadre of academics and scientists who would advise the intelligence agencies on all of these issues.” Not just UAPs, but other things. For the first time! Because there are so many barriers for this. But one of the things that…I wrote a white paper for some of these committees, and I called for that. I said, “You need to bring the scientists in.” Not that we know better than anybody else, because most scientists can actually be dorks (laughs). It’s because you want that outside opinion, you want the crazy opinion, because you just want it on the table, sometimes, because it might be true.
TC: Yes!
GN: And, you know, when you do have a decision to make, you don’t want it to be a political decision, at some level. You want it to be science, and you want to use the best science to inform the politics and the policymakers so that they have the information at their disposal. But, we don’t have it yet. So, now we do, now it’s starting to come. And it’s literally in the bill today that says we will now try to establish and find ways to bring scientists on board, in secure manners, right? With classified access. Because, I don’t want to give it to the Chinese. And I certainly don’t want to give it to the Russians.
TC: Yes.
GN: Right? So, obviously, this information has to be vetted, whatever we might learn. But then at some level, though, you need to get the information out to academics because the silo approach of the last eighties years has not worked. Having one piece of it at Lockheed, having another piece of it over here, another piece of it over there, they can’t talk to each other, right? By definition of how these things are set up. That isn’t how a laboratory works. That isn’t how science works. I need to know all this other stuff.
TC: Of course.
GN: And so, we need to find a way to declassify enough things so that the collective smarts of the country can come to bear on it, to hopefully use it. I mean, I come back to, constantly: If there’s something here, can we use it, and can we take advantage of it? Well, first for the country, and then for the planet. That’s just my interest. That’s always been my approach to life.
TC: I think the most heartening part of this conversation, not only has it been fascinating, but, is the confirmation that science still exists, scientific thinking, the open mindedness that science requires still exists. It’s not all just superstition.
GN: Right.
TC: And reflexive, political orthodoxy. So anyway, I’m grateful that you’re doing this. I’m grateful you’re taken so seriously at Stanford, and above all, I appreciate your telling us all this.
GN: Thank you very much.
TC: Dr. Garry Nolan, thank you very much.
GN: Appreciate it.
TC: Amazing.
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