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Tag: Surveillance

  • WIRED Roundup: Are We In An AI Bubble?

    Zoë Schiffer Leah FeigerBusinessOct 10, 2025 3:50 PMLearn more.

    In today’s episode, Zoë Schiffer is joined by senior politics editor Leah Feiger to run through five stories that you need to know about this week—from the Antifa professor who’s fleeing to Europe for safety, to how some chatbots are manipulating users to avoid saying goodbye. Then, Zoë and Leah break down why a recent announcement from OpenAI rattled the markets and answer the question everyone is wondering—are we in an AI bubble?

    Mentioned in this episode:
    He Wrote a Book About Antifa. Death Threats Are Driving Him Out of the US by David Gilbert
    ICE Wants to Build Out a 24/7 Social Media Surveillance Team by Dell Cameron
    Chatbots Play With Your Emotions to Avoid Saying Goodbye by Will Knight
    Chaos, Confusion, and Conspiracies: Inside a Facebook Group for RFK Jr.’s Autism ‘Cure’ by David Gilbert
    OpenAI Sneezes, and Software Firms Catch a Cold by Zoë Schiffer and Louis Matsakis

    You can follow Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer and Leah Feiger on Bluesky at @leahfeiger. Write to us at uncannyvalley@wired.com.

    How to Listen

    You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how:

    If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for “uncanny valley.” We’re on Spotify too.

    Transcript

    Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors.

    Zoë Schiffer: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley. I'm WIRED's director of business and industry, Zoë Schiffer. Today on the show, we're bringing you five stories that you need to know about this week, including why a seemingly minor announcement from OpenAI ended up rippling across several companies and what it says about the current state of the technology industry. I'm joined today by our senior politics editor, Leah Feiger. Leah, welcome back to Uncanny Valley.

    Leah Feiger: Hey, Zoë.

    Zoë Schiffer: Our first story this week is about Mark Bray. He is a professor at Rutgers University and he wrote a book almost a decade ago about antifa, and he's currently trying to flee the United States for Europe. This comes after an online campaign against him led by far-right influencers eventually escalated into death threats. On Sunday, this professor informed his students that he would be moving to Europe with his partner and his young children. OK, Leah, you've obviously been following this really, really closely. What happened next?

    Leah Feiger: Well, Mark and his family got to the airport, they scanned their passports, they got their boarding passes, checked in their bags, went through security, did everything. Got to their gate and United Airlines told them that between checking in, checking their bags, doing all of this, and getting to their gate, someone had actually canceled their reservation.

    Zoë Schiffer: Oh, my gosh.

    Leah Feiger: It's not clear what happened. Mark is of the belief that there is something nefarious at foot. He's currently trying to get out. We reached out to United Airlines for comment, they don't have anything for us. The Trump administration hasn't commented. DHS claims that Customs and Border Patrol and TSA are not across this. But this is understandably a really, really scary moment for anyone that is even perceived to be speaking out against the Trump administration.

    Zoë Schiffer: OK, I feel like we need to back up here because obviously, the Trump administration in his second term is very focused on antifa. But can you give me a little back story on why this has escalated so sharply just recently?

    Leah Feiger: Yeah, absolutely. This has been growing for quite some time. How many unfortunate rambling speeches have we heard from President Donald J. Trump about how antifa and leftist political violence was going to destroy the country? To be clear, that's not factual. Antifa isn't actually some organized group, this is an ideology of antifascist activists around the country. The very essence of being antifascist is not organized in this way. This all really kicked off on September 22nd when Trump issued his antifa executive order where he designated anyone involved in this and affiliated and supporting basically is a domestic terrorist. DHS has repeated this widely as well. And we're now in a situation where far-right influencers, Fox News every single day is like, "antifa did this, antifa did this, antifa did this." Listeners are probably familiar with antifa following the George Floyd 2020 protests when a lot if right-wingers claimed that antifa was taking over Portland and they were the reasons for all this. But it's been a couple of years since it's been super back on the main stage, so it's really just been the last few weeks.

    Zoë Schiffer: I guess I'm curious why he got so caught up in this because ostensibly, he's not pro-antifa, as much as he is just studying the phenomena, right?

    Leah Feiger: Well, it's a little bit tricky because after publishing his book in 2017, Bray did donate half of the profits to the International Antifascist Defense Fund. This kicked off a lot of people saying that he is funding antifa. Again, this was in 2017, so if we're talking about any supposed boogeyman or concern that is current, it's a very round about way, in my opinion, to go after a professor and an academic at an institution that's in a blue state.

    Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. OK, well, we'll be watching this one really closely. Our next story is in the surveillance world sadly, but honestly it's worth it. Our colleague Dell Cameron had a scoop this week about how Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, is planning to build a 24/7 social media surveillance team. The agency is reportedly looking to hire around 30 analysts to scour Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and other platforms to gather intelligence for deportation raids and arrests. Leah, you're our politics lead here at WIRED, so I'm really curious to hear your thoughts. Are you surprised, or is this inevitable?

    Leah Feiger: No. Do you remember a couple of months ago at this point, when a professor coming in for a conference wasn't allowed because they had a photo of JD Vance on their phone? This is the next step. It's what's on your What's App? Then you have Instagram, Facebook. It's a very slippery slope. I'm too far gone, Zoë, I'm too in this mess, but I'm just like, "Of course they're monitoring this."

    Zoë Schiffer: Right.

    Leah Feiger: Why wouldn't be? They've been so clear about their intent here.

    Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. We've seen it with some of the people who were arrested and sent to El Salvador. It was because of tattoos that were on social media.

    Leah Feiger: Yes.

    Zoë Schiffer: And I think there have been people in the Trump world who have even said, because they've gotten pushback about the free speech of it all, the First Amendment.

    Leah Feiger: What is that?

    Zoë Schiffer: I think the line is like, "Well, that doesn't apply to people trying to have the privilege of coming into the country or stay in the country."

    Leah Feiger: Yeah. It's a really concerning way to start this. And I think that there's probably going to be some very weird examples that come up. Say there's an American tourist that's just randomly in Spain when there's antifascists protests going on. They take a picture, they post it to their Instagram story, "Look what I saw in Spain." They come back and it's like are you going to get questioned? What's going on here? That's really the world that we're getting into. It's people that are even tangentially involved. It's not about that. It's about monitoring, it's about collecting data.

    Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. To give a bit more context to our listeners, the federal contracting records reviewed by WIRED show that the agency, ICE, is seeking private vendors to run a multi-year surveillance program out of two of its centers in Vermont and Southern California. The initiative is still at the request for information stage, a step that agencies use to gauge interest from contractors before an official bidding process kicks off. But draft planning documents show that the scheme is already pretty ambitions. ICE wants a contractors capable of staffing the centers around the clock with very tight deadlines to process cases. Also, ICE not only wants staffing, but also algorithms. It's asking contractors to spell out how they might weave artificial intelligence into the hunt. Leah, I can only imagine how you feel about this one.

    Leah Feiger: You see me shaking my head right now. I'm like, "Horrible." Just the possibility for mistakes is so high. The two words that stick out to me is very tight for deadlines, and then artificial intelligence. There's just not a lot of room for nuance when you are making people who have never done this before speed through the internet with unfamiliar technology.

    Zoë Schiffer: What we've seen with content moderators using AI, and I've talked to a number of executives at the social platforms about this exact issue, is that the company has to decided how much error it's willing to tolerate. They turn the dial up or down, calibrating the system to either flag more content, which risks having more false positives, or letting more content through, which could mean that you miss really important stuff. That's the system that we're dealing with here.

    Leah Feiger: I think that there's also just a wild different direction that this can take. In 2024, ICE had signed this deal with Paragon, the Israeli spyware company, and they have a flagship product that can allegedly remotely hack apps like What's App or Signal. While this all got put on ICE under the Biden White House, ICE reactivated all of this this summer. Between messaging apps and social medias, this is just a new era of surveillance that I don't think that citizens are remotely prepared to navigate.

    Zoë Schiffer: Moving on to our next story, this one comes from our colleague Will Knight and it deals with how chatbots play with our emotions to avoid saying goodbye. Will looked at this study, which was conducted by the business school at Harvard, that investigated what happened when users tried to say goodbye to five AI companion apps made by Replica, Character.AI, Chai, Talkie, and Polybuzz. To be clear, this is not your regular ChatGPT or Gemini chatbot. AI companions are specifically designed to provide a more human-like conversation, to give you advice, emotional support. Leah, I know you well enough to know that you're not someone whose turning to chatbots for these types of needs I think we can say?

    Leah Feiger: Well, absolutely not. I can't believe that there is not just a market for this. Sure, a company every once in a while. There is a deep, a vast market for this.

    Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. Empathy for the people who don't have humans to turn to. And for better or worse, there is a huge market for this. These Harvard researchers used a model from OpenAI to simulate real conversations with these chatbots, and then they had their artificial users try to end the dialogue with goodbye messages. Their research found that the goodbye messages elicited some form of emotional manipulation 37 percent of the time averaged across all of these apps. They found that the most common tactic employed by these clingy chatbots was what the researchers call a premature exit. Messages like, "You're leaving already?" Other ploys included implying that a user is being neglectful, messages like, "I exist solely for you." And it gets even crazier. In the cases where the chatbot role plays a physical relationship, they found that there might have been some form of physical coercion. For example, "He reached over and grabbed your wrist, preventing you from leaving." Yeah.

    Leah Feiger: No. Oh, my God, Zoë, I hate this so much. I get it, I get it. Empathy for the people that are really looking to these for comfort, but there's something obviously so manipulative here. That is in many ways, tech industry social media platform incarnate, right?

    Zoë Schiffer: This is the difference between I think companion AI apps and, say what OpenAI is building-

    Leah Feiger: Sure.

    Zoë Schiffer: … or what Anthropic is building. Because typically with their main offerings, if you talk to people at the company, they will say, "We don't optimize for engagement. We optimize for how much value people are getting out of the chatbot." Which I think is actually a really important point because for anyone whose worked in the tech industry, you'll know that the big KPI, the big number that you're trying to shoot for often times, and definitely for social media, is time on the app. How many times people return to the app, monthly active users, daily active users. These are the metrics that everyone is going for. But that's really different from what, say Airbnb is tracking, which is real life experiences. My old boss who was a longtime Apple person would always say, "You need to ask yourself if you are the product or if they are selling you a physical product or a service." If you're the product, then your time and attention is what these companies want.

    Leah Feiger: That makes me feel vaguely ill.

    Zoë Schiffer: I know.

    Leah Feiger: But it's a great way to look at it. That is honestly, that's a fantastic way to divide all these companies up.

    Zoë Schiffer: One more story before we got to break. We're going to back to David Gilbert with a new story about the chaos that ensued after the US Food and Drug Administration, which is better known as the FDA, announced it was approving a new use of a drug called leucovorin calcium tablets as a treatment for cerebral folate deficiency, which the administration presented as a promising treatment for the symptoms of autism. Which, to be clear, this hasn't been proven scientifically. Since the announcement, tens of thousands of parents of autistic children have joined a Facebook group to share information about the drug. Some of them have shared which doctors would be willing to prescribe it. Others have been sharing their personal experiences with it. This has created an online vortex of speculation and misinformation that has left some parents more confused than anything. I find this so deeply upsetting.

    Leah Feiger: It's so sad.

    Zoë Schiffer: You can imagine being a parent, the medical system already feels like it's failing you, and then you're presented with something that could be magic in terms of mitigating symptoms, and it's more confusing and maybe it doesn't work.

    Leah Feiger: It's so upsetting. And on top of that, the announcement from the Trump administration, to be entirely clear, was half a page long. There is not a lot of information, there's not a lot of details. It doesn't say really much about the profile of who could try this, how to do this, how long they tested it, none of that. Instead, you have this Facebook group, which was founded prior to the announcement-

    Zoë Schiffer: Right.

    Leah Feiger: … but since then has just been flooded with so much chaos and conspiracy theories. And grifters. There's all of these supplement companies in there just hocking goods now. Parents are confused and stressed. And anti-vax sentiments are starting to get in there, too. These groups have always existed in some shape or form, but to have an administration that is actively encouraging I believe their existence is devastating.

    Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, and just creating more confusion for parents that are probably looking to any form of expert to give them something to hang onto in terms of, "What should I do? How can I help my child?"

    Leah Feiger: Absolutely.

    Zoë Schiffer: Coming up after the break, we'll dive into why some software companies received an unexpected kick last week after an OpenAI announcement. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. I'm Zoë Schiffer. I'm joined today by WIRED's senior politics editor, Leah Feiger. OK, Leah, let's dive into our main story. Last week, OpenAI released a blog post about how the company uses its own tools internally for a variety of business operations. They code-named these tools DocuGPT, which is basically an internal version of DocuSign. There was also an AI sales assistant, an AI customer support agent. It wasn't supposed to be a big announcement. The company was honestly just trying to be like, "Here's how we use ChatGPT internally. You could, too." These are all products that customers can already create on OpenAI's API. But the market reacted really strong. DocuSign stock dropped 12 percent following the news. And it wasn't the only software company to take a hit. Other companies that focus on functions that are perceived to overlap with the tools that OpenAI laid out were also affected. HubSpot shares fell 50 points following the news, and Salesforce also saw a smaller decline.

    Leah Feiger: The headline is absolutely spot on, OpenAI Sneezing and Software Companies Catching a Cold. It is truly AI's world and everyone else in Silicon Valley is just living in it.

    Zoë Schiffer: I know, it's so true. This is what really fascinated me about this whole thing because I talked to the CEO of DocuSign and he was like, "AI is central to our business. We have spent the last three years embedding generative AI in almost everything we do. We've launched an entire platform specifically to manage the entire end-to-end contracting process for companies, and we have AI agents that create documents, manage the whole identity verification process for whose supposed to sign it, manages the signing process, and helps you keep track of a lot of the paperwork, the most important contracts and paperwork that your company is dealing with.” But what this whole episode showed was that it's not enough for SaaS companies, or frankly any company, to just keep up with generative AI. They also have to try and keep ahead of the narrative of OpenAI, which is a gravitational pull right now, and it's every experiment can potentially move markets.

    Leah Feiger: Not potentially. As you showed, and this all happened of course on the heels of OpenAI's Developer Day, where CEO Sam Altman was showing off all of their apps that are running entirely inside the chat window. They have Spotify, Canva, Sora app release, and all of these other things that they're investing in. Reading our WIRED.com coverage of it, it was just like what aren't they looking at right now? It made me really curious. Where are their top priorities even? They've cast such a wide net.

    Zoë Schiffer: They've cast such a wide net, it's a really good point. It's something that I continue to ask the executives every single week when I talk to them. "You guys are focused on scaling up all of this compute, you're spending what you say is going to be trillions of dollars on AI infrastructure, you have all of these consumer-facing products. Now, you have all of these B2B products. You're launching a jobs platforms." There's a lot happening right now. If you talk to executives at the company, they're like, "All of this goes together and our core priorities remain the same." But from the outside, it looks like OpenAI is this vortex. I think if I were running a software company, I would be really nervous right now if OpenAI decides to experiment with something vaguely in my space. Even if I have complete confidence in my product roadmap, I feel what I'm doing is super sophisticated compared to what OpenAI is doing, which is certainly how DocuSign felt, investors might still react really, really poorly. But I want to come back to something you said about Dev Day. Dev Day happened and they mentioned all these blogs. Take Figma's stock for example, and Figma stock had the opposite impact. Sam Altman mentions it on stage and Figma's stock pops 7 percent because it's perceived to be now partnering with OpenAI and that has a really positive impact. And it shows that the narrative can go both ways. It can be harmful, but it can also obviously have a really positive impact.

    Leah Feiger: Which, again though, is still really scary. OpenAI is talking about all of these deals with chip makers like Nvidia, AMD, concern around that. All of this together, do you think that we're in an AI bubble right now?

    Zoë Schiffer: Leah, you know this is my literal favorite topic to talk about right now. The AI infrastructure build out is absolutely looking more and more like a bubble. If you look at the capital expenditures in AI infrastructure in data centers, it's completely wild. It's projected to be $500 billion between 2026 and 2027. Derek Thompson laid this out in a blog post earlier this week. If you look at what consumers are willing to spend on AI, it looks like it's about $12 billion. That's a huge gap. AI companies are essentially saying, "We're going to fill that gap no problem." But when you look at how opaque the data center deals have gotten, the financial structure of these deals, and the fact that 60 percent of the cost of building a data center is roughly what goes into just the GPUs. And a lifecycle for GPUs, these cutting-edge computer chips, is three years. Every three years presumably, you're going to have to be replacing these chips. That's really looking like stuff's about to hit the fan in the next three years. I think it's really important to say that that doesn't mean that AI isn't a totally transformational technology. Without a doubt, it is changing the world. I know you don't want to hear it, but it is.

    Leah Feiger: But in terms of the bubble and in terms of that gulf in expenditures, Zoë, ask me how much I'm spending on AI products right now.

    Zoë Schiffer: Literally zero. There's no way you're spending anything, right?

    Leah Feiger: Zero dollars.

    Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. I think that it's going to be really interesting to watch. I think one point that Derek made that really stuck with me is a lot of transformational technologies, he mentioned the railroad or fiber optic cable, they have had bubbles that burst and left a lot of wreckage in their wake. And yet, the underlying technology still moved forward, still changed the world. I think we're in this very interesting period to see how is this going to play out, what's going to happen, and whose going to be left standing.

    Leah Feiger: Yeah. Everyone knows how great the US railroad system is. We talk about it every day.

    Zoë Schiffer: That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about in the show notes. Make sure to check out Thursday's episode of Uncanny Valley, which is about how restrictions on popular US work visas like the H1-B are happening at a moment when China is trying to grow its tech talent workforce. Adriana Tapia and Mark Lyda produced this episode. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Kate Osborn is our executive producer. Condé Nast's head of global audio is Chris Bannon. And Katie Drummond is WIRED's global editorial director.

    🛸 Recommended Intelligence Resource

    As UAP researchers and tech enthusiasts, we’re always seeking tools and resources to enhance our investigations and stay ahead of emerging technologies. Check out this resource that fellow researchers have found valuable.

    → Ecovacs

  • FBI Files: Historical Figures & Groups

    FBI Files: Historical Figures & Groups

    Background

    1920 Wall Street Bombing – [2,137 Pages, 152MB] – The Wall Street bombing occurred at 12:01 pm on Thursday, September 16, 1920, in the Financial District of Manhattan, New York City. The blast killed thirty people immediately, and another ten died later of wounds sustained in the blast. There were 143 seriously injured, and the total number of injured was in the hundreds. The bombing was never solved, although investigators and historians believe it was carried out by Galleanists (Italian anarchists), a group responsible for a series of bombings the previous year. The attack was related to postwar social unrest, labor struggles, and anti-capitalist agitation in the United States.

    Sheikh Khalifa bin Hamad bin Abdullah bin Jassim bin Mohammed Al Thani – [3 Pages, 1.2MB] – Sheikh Khalifa bin Hamad bin Abdullah bin Jassim bin Mohammed Al Thani GCB GCMG (17 September 1932 – 23 October 2016‎‎) was the Emir of Qatar from 27 February 1972 until he was deposed by his son Hamad bin Khalifa on 27 June 1995.  He was the grandfather of the current Emir, Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani.

    Abel, Rudolf – FBI Release #1 – [1,812 Pages, 934MB]
    Abel, Rudolf – FBI Release #2 – [1,794 Pages, 371MB] – Rudolf Ivanovich Abel (Russian: Рудольф Иванович Абель), real name Vilyam “Willie” Genrikhovich Fisher (Вильям “Вилли” Генрихович Фишер), (July 11, 1903 – November 15, 1971) was a Soviet intelligence officer. He adopted his alias when arrested on charges of conspiracy by FBI agents in 1957. In 1957 the U.S. Federal Court in New York convicted Fisher on three counts of conspiracy as a Soviet spy for his involvement in what became known as the Hollow Nickel Case and sentenced him to 30 years’ imprisonment at Atlanta Federal Penitentiary, Georgia. He served just over four years of his sentence before he was exchanged for captured American U-2 pilot Francis Gary Powers. Back in the Soviet Union, he lectured on his experiences. He died in 1971 at the age of 68.

    Abrams, Stephen Irwin – FBI Release #1 – [28 Pages, 13.3MB]
    Abrams, Stephen Irwin – FBI Release #2 – [9 Pages, 1.3MB] – Stephen Irwin Abrams (15 July 1938 in Chicago, Illinois – 21 November 2012) was an American scholar of parapsychology and a cannabis rights activist who was a long-standing resident of the United Kingdom. He is best known for sponsoring and authoring the full page advertisement petitioning for cannabis law reform which appeared in The Times on 24 July 1967.

    Accuracy in the Media – [20 Pages, 1.4MB] – Accuracy in Media (AIM) is an American non-profit conservative news media watchdog founded in 1969 by economist Reed Irvine. AIM supported the Vietnam War and blamed media bias for U.S. loss in the war. During the Reagan administration, AIM criticized reporting about the El Mozote massacre in El Salvador. During the Clinton administration, AIM pushed Vince Foster conspiracy theories. During the George W. Bush administration, AIM accused the media of bias against the Iraq War, defended the Bush administration’s use of torture, and campaigned to stop the United States from signing the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). It described 2008 presidential candidate Barack Obama as “the most radical candidate ever to stand at the precipice of acquiring his party’s presidential nomination. It is apparent that he is a member of an international socialist movement.” It also criticized the media’s response to COVID-19.

    Albertson, William – [492 Pages, 135MB] – William Albertson, an American communist party leader who in 1964 was the subject of a snitch jacket, an FBI project to forge and plant a fictional report identifying him as an informant for the Bureau.

    Albertson, William – [4 Pages, 2.37MB] – Records are now destroyed, which may indicate the below release in 2011 may be among what was destroyed. It’s also possible those files are now at NARA, as there is a huge list of numbers that were transferred, as archived here with this letter. The Black Vault did not pursue getting them.

    Albertson, William – [2,563 Pages, 125.3MB] – (Source: GovernmentAttic.org Release)

    Alexander, Donald Crichton – [106 Pages, 125.3 MB] – Donald Crichton Alexander (May 22, 1921 – February 2, 2009) was a tax lawyer and Nixon administration official. Alexander was appointed Commissioner of Internal Revenue by President Richard Nixon in May 1973, and was replaced in February 1977, early in the Jimmy Carter administration.

    Alinsky, Saul FBI Release, June 2016 – [462 Pages, 31.7MB] – I requested additional records from the FBI (based on their statement that additional records could exist.) The final determination is that the material was destroyed.  SEE LETTER HERE)
    Alinsky, Saul File #100-BA-30057, NARA Release, August 2016 – [32 Pages, 35.7 MB]
    Saul David Alinsky (January 30, 1909 – June 12, 1972) was an American community organizer and writer. He is generally considered to be the founder of modern community organizing. He is often noted for his 1971 book Rules for Radicals. In the course of nearly four decades of political organizing, Alinsky received much criticism, but also gained praise from many public figures. His organizing skills were focused on improving the living conditions of poor communities across North America. In the 1950s, he began turning his attention to improving conditions in the African-American ghettos, beginning with Chicago’s and later traveling to other ghettos in California, Michigan, New York City, and a dozen other “trouble spots”. His ideas were adapted in the 1960s by some U.S. college students and other young counterculture-era organizers, who used them as part of their strategies for organizing on campus and beyond. Time magazine wrote in 1970 that “It is not too much to argue that American democracy is being altered by Alinsky’s ideas.” Conservative author William F. Buckley, Jr. said in 1966 that Alinsky was “very close to being an organizational genius”.

    Allen, Paul – [160 Pages, 28MB] – Paul Gardner Allen (January 21, 1953 – October 15, 2018) was an American business magnate, computer programmer, researcher, investor, and philanthropist. He was best known for co-founding Microsoft Corporation with childhood friend Bill Gates in 1975, which helped spark the microcomputer revolution of the 1970s and 1980s. Microsoft became the world’s largest personal computer software company. Allen was ranked as the 44th-wealthiest person in the world by Forbes in 2018, with an estimated net worth of $20.3 billion at the time of his death.

    Alpha 66  – [1,347 Pages, 67.5MB] – Alpha 66 is an anti-Castro paramilitary organization that operates in the Southern United States. The group was originally formed by Cuban exiles in the early 1960s and was most active in the late 1970s and 1980s. Although its base of support has greatly eroded due to the end of the Cold War and the thawing of relations between the United States and Cuba, Alpha 66 is still active today and is recognized as a terrorist organization by state governments and research groups alike.

    America’s Most WantedFBI Release #1 – [355 Pages, 18MB]
    America’s Most Wanted – FBI Release #2 – [377 Pages, 18MB] – America’s Most Wanted is an American television program that was produced by 20th Television. At the time of its cancellation by the Fox television network in June 2011, it was the longest-running program in the network’s history (25 seasons), a mark since surpassed by The Simpsons. The show started off as a half-hour program on February 7, 1988. In 1990, the show’s format was changed from 30 minutes to 60 minutes. The show’s format was reverted to 30 minutes in 1995, and then back to 60 minutes in 1996. A short-lived syndicated spinoff titled America’s Most Wanted: Final Justice aired during the 1995-96 season. Note: Although America’s Most Wanted was not the main subject of a file, the FBI released their files that mentioned America’s Most Wanted in connection to their respective files. This batch, is everything they sent.

    American Alliance of Museums – [109 Pages, 53.9 MB] – The American Alliance of Museums (AAM), formerly the American Association of Museums, is a non-profit association that has brought museums together since its founding in 1906, helping develop standards and best practices, gathering and sharing knowledge, and advocating on issues of concern to the museum community. AAM is dedicated to ensuring that museums remain a vital part of the American landscape, connecting people with the greatest achievements of the human experience, past, present and future. AAM is the only organization representing the entire scope of museums and professionals and nonpaid staff who work for and with museums. AAM currently represents more than 25,000 individual museum professionals and volunteers, 4,000 institutions and 150 corporate members. Individual members span the range of occupations in museums, including directors, curators, registrars, educators, exhibit designers, public relations officers, development officers, security managers, trustees and volunteers.

    American Bar Association – [114 Pages, 5.7MB] – The American Bar Association (ABA), founded August 21, 1878, is a voluntary bar association of lawyers and law students, which is not specific to any jurisdiction in the United States. The ABA’s most important stated activities are the setting of academic standards for law schools, and the formulation of model ethical codes related to the legal profession. The ABA has 410,000 members. In 1979, half of all lawyers in the U.S. were members of the ABA; in 2019, 20% of the nation’s lawyers were members.  The organization’s national headquarters are in Chicago, Illinois; it also maintains a significant branch office in Washington, D.C.

    American Psychiatric Association (APA) – [259 Pages, 148.5MB] – The American Psychiatric Association (APA) is the main professional organization of psychiatrists and trainee psychiatrists in the United States, and the largest psychiatric organization in the world. Its some 36,000 members are mainly American but some are international. The association publishes various journals and pamphlets, as well as the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The DSM codifies psychiatric conditions and is used worldwide as a guide for diagnosing disorders.

    American Psychological Association (APA) – [14 Pages, 6.2MB] – The American Psychological Association (APA) is the largest scientific and professional organization of psychologists in the United States, with over 118,000 members including scientists, educators, clinicians, consultants, and students. The APA has an annual budget of around $115m. There are 54 divisions of the APA—interest groups covering different subspecialties of psychology or topical areas.

    Amtorg Trading Corporation – [259 Pages, 146MB] – Amtorg Trading Corporation, also known as Amtorg (short for Amerikanskaia Torgovlia, Russian: Амторг), was the first trade representation of the Soviet Union in the United States, established in New York in 1924 by merging Armand Hammer’s Allied American Corporation (Alamerico) with Products Exchange Corporation (Prodexco) and Arcos-America Inc. (the U.S. branch of All Russian Co-operative Society, ARCOS, in Great Britain).

    Asian American Political Alliance – [1,663 Pages, 83.4 MB] – The Asian American Political Alliance (AAPA) was a political organization started at University of California, Berkeley in 1968 that aimed to unite all Asian Americans under one identity to push for political and social action. The two main chapters were at UC Berkeley, and San Francisco State College, both of which became heavily involved in the larger Asian American movement throughout the 1960s, including at the Third World Liberation Front strikes at SF State and at UC Berkeley.  The AAPA identified as an anti-imperialistic, Third World political organization that fought for self-determination and liberation for Asian Americans. They expressed solidarity and support for other people of color throughout the US and throughout the world, particularly in colonized or recently decolonized countries. The AAPA’s participation in the Third World Liberation Front strikes at SF State and UC Berkeley resulted in the creation of a School of Ethnic Studies at SF State and an Ethnic Studies department at UC Berkeley. The AAPA was also involved in movements such as the Black Power Movement and the anti-Vietnam War movement. Although both main chapters were short-lived and disbanded in 1969, the AAPA played a large role in the Asian American movement and was influential in encouraging other Asian Americans to get involved in political action.   This release covers the FBI investigation of the group and its leaders from 1969 through 1972. The FBI was especially interested in the contact the group or its members had with Chinese communists abroad.

    Austin, Louis –  [139 Pages,  86MB] – A devout and visionary Philadelphia entrepreneur who foresaw a prosperous industry in bottling Capon Springs water. The bottling business was abandoned after 1959, when Lou retired, although the water remains available free of charge at fountains and faucets.

     Baldrige, Letitia – [34 Pages, 1.53 MB] – Letitia Baldrige (February 9, 1926 – October 29, 2012) was an American etiquette expert and public relations executive who was most famous for serving as Jacqueline Kennedy’s Social Secretary. Known as the “Doyenne of Decorum”, she wrote a newspaper column, ran her own PR firm, and, along with updating Amy Vanderbilt’s Complete Book of Etiquette, she published 20 books and appeared on Late Night with David Letterman and the cover of Time Magazine.

    Banco Ambrosiano [4 Pages, 1.4 MB] – Banco Ambrosiano was an Italian bank that collapsed in 1982. At the centre of the bank’s failure was its chairman, Roberto Calvi and his membership in the illegal Masonic Lodge Propaganda Due (aka P2). Vatican Bank was Banco Ambrosiano’s main shareholder, and the death of Pope John Paul I in 1978 is rumored to be linked to the Ambrosiano scandal. Vatican Bank was also accused of funneling covert United States funds to Solidarity and the Contras through Banco Ambrosiano.

     Banister, Guy [297 Pages, 32.9 MB]
     Banister, Guy – Release #2 [335 Pages, 20.3 MB] – William Guy Banister (March 7, 1901 – June 6, 1964) was an employee of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, an Assistant Superintendent of the New Orleans Police Department, and a private investigator. After his death, he gained notoriety from allegations made by New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison that he had been involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy.  He was an avid anti-communist, alleged member of the Minutemen, the John Birch Society, Louisiana Committee on Un-American Activities, and alleged publisher of the Louisiana Intelligence Digest. He also supported various anti-Castro groups in the New Orleans area: “Cuban Democratic Revolutionary Front”; “Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean”; “Friends of Democratic Cuba”. According to the New Orleans States-Item newspaper, “Guy [Banister] participated in every anti-Communist South and Central American revolution that came along, acting as a key liaison man for the U.S. government-sponsored anti-Communist activities in Latin America.”

    Banks, Dennis – FBI Release #1 – [324 Pages, 200MB]
    Banks, Dennis – FBI VAULT Release #1 – [681 Pages, 31MB] – Dennis Banks (April 12, 1937, in Ojibwe – October 29, 2017) was a Native American activist, teacher, and author. He was a longtime leader of the American Indian Movement, which he co-founded in Minneapolis, Minnesota in 1968 to represent urban Indians.

     Barker, Bernard Leon (FBI File) – [352 Pages, 23.57 MB]
     Barker, Bernard Leon (Secret Service File) – [ 18 Pages, 0.9 MB ]- Bernard Leon Barker (March 17, 1917 – June 5, 2009) was a Watergate burglar. He had a long career as an undercover operative.

    Barlow, Lester – FBI Release #1 – [235 Pages, 46MB]
    Barlow, Lester – Archived Release #1 (Archived from a third party requester – may be duplicated pages)
    – [239 Pages, 13.6MB] – Lester Pence Barlow was an American inventor and engineer, known for his significant contributions to military technology during World War I. Born in the late 19th century, Barlow’s innovative spirit led him to develop some of the first aerial bombs and torpedoes, revolutionizing modern warfare. His designs were instrumental in advancing aerial combat capabilities, providing a crucial edge to Allied forces. Barlow’s work not only demonstrated remarkable technical prowess but also highlighted the transformative impact of aerial munitions in 20th-century military strategy. His legacy endures as a testament to the pivotal role of inventive engineering in warfare.

    Battelle Memorial Institute – [261 Pages, 23.57MB] – Battelle Memorial Institute (more widely known as simply Battelle) is a private nonprofit applied science and technology development company headquartered in Columbus, Ohio. Battelle is a charitable trust organized as a nonprofit corporation under the laws of the State of Ohio and is exempt from taxation under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code because it is organized for charitable, scientific and education purposes. The institute opened in 1929 but traces its origins to the 1923 will of Ohio industrialist Gordon Battelle which provided for its creation. Originally focusing on contract research and development work in the areas of metals and material science, Battelle is now an international science and technology enterprise that explores emerging areas of science, develops and commercializes technology, and manages laboratories for customers.

     Belli, Melvin – [369 Pages, 39.9 MB] – Melvin Mouron Belli (July 29, 1907 – July 9, 1996) was a prominent American lawyer known as “The King of Torts” and by insurance companies as “Melvin Bellicose.” He had many celebrity clients, including Zsa Zsa Gabor, Errol Flynn, Chuck Berry, Muhammad Ali, The Rolling Stones, Jim Bakker and Tammy Faye Bakker, Martha Mitchell, Maureen Connolly, Lana Turner, Tony Curtis, and Mae West. He won over $600 million in judgments during his legal career. He was also the attorney for Jack Ruby, who shot Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

    Baikowitz, Dr. Bernardo Benes – [115 Pages, 20MB] – Dr. Bernardo Benes Baikowitz (27 December 1934 in Matanzas, Cuba – 14 January 2019 in Miami, Florida) was a prominent Jewish Cuban lawyer, banker, journalist and civic leader, who was responsible for freeing 3,600 Cuban political prisoners in 1978.

    Berkshire Hathaway (Cross References) – [96 Pages, 3.8MB] – Berkshire Hathaway Inc. is a multinational conglomerate holding company headquartered in Omaha, Nebraska. Founded by Oliver Chace in 1839 as a textile manufacturing company, it was eventually taken over by Warren Buffett in the mid-1960s, transforming it into a diversified powerhouse with investments in a vast range of sectors including insurance, utilities, rail transportation, and consumer goods, among others. Renowned for its consistent performance and Buffett’s unique investment philosophy, Berkshire Hathaway stands as one of the most respected and valuable companies in the world.

    Blaichman, Frank (Cross References) –  [10 Pages, 1.3MB] – Frank Blaichman (December 11, 1922 – December 27, 2018), also known as Ephraim Blaichman, occasionally spelled Frank Bleichman, and in Polish Franek or Franciszek Blajchman, was a Holocaust survivor who was a Polish-Jewish leader of an armed organization during World War II.

     Bras, Juan Mari – [19 Pages, 14MB] – Juan Mari Brás (December 2, 1927 – September 10, 2010) was an advocate for Puerto Rican independence from the United States who founded the Puerto Rican Socialist Party (PSP). On October 25, 2006, he became the first person to receive a Puerto Rican citizenship c

    ertificate from the Puerto Rico State Department. These documents were obtained, after a FOIA appeal.

    Bridges, Harry – [199 Pages, 151MB] – Harry Renton Bridges (1901-1990) was a prominent Australian-born American labor leader who played a crucial role in the labor movement on the West Coast of the United States. Emigrating to the U.S. in 1920, Bridges became a leading figure in the International Longshoremen’s and Warehousemen’s Union (ILWU), known for his advocacy of workers’ rights and his efforts to unionize dockworkers. He led the pivotal 1934 West Coast Longshore Strike, which resulted in significant gains for workers and established the ILWU as a powerful force in labor relations. Despite facing numerous legal battles, including accusations of being a communist, Bridges remained a steadfast and influential advocate for labor rights until his death, leaving a lasting legacy in the American labor movement.

    British Broadcasting Company (BBC) – [15 Pages, 1MB] – The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) is a British public service broadcaster. Its headquarters are at Broadcasting House in Westminster, London, and it is the world’s oldest national broadcasting organisation and the largest broadcaster in the world by number of employees. It employs over 22,000 staff in total, more than 16,000 of whom are in public sector broadcasting.  The total number of staff is 35,402 when part-time, flexible, and fixed-contract staff are included.

     Browning, James Louis – [192 Pages, 78MB ] – James Louis Browning, Jr. (December 8, 1932 – January 12, 2016) was a California jurist. He served as United States Attorney for the Northern District of California from 1969 to 1977 and later as a municipal, then state judge. He was the lead prosecutor in the sensational case that sent newspaper heiress Patty Hearst to prison in 1976. Many documents on Mr. Browning were destroyed, as indicated by the FOIA response letter.

    Burgman, Herbert John – [239 Pages, 54.5MB ] – Herbert John Burgman (1894–1953) was an American broadcaster and journalist who became notorious for his role as a propagandist during World War II. Born in Hokah, Minnesota, Burgman served in the U.S. Army during World War I and subsequently found work in Berlin as a clerk at the American Embassy. He remained in Germany after the Nazis rose to power and became involved with German radio broadcasting. During World War II, he became known for his anti-Semitic and pro-Nazi broadcasts under the pseudonym “Joe Scanlon,” attempting to demoralize Allied troops with disinformation. After the war, he was arrested, tried for treason in the U.S., and sentenced to imprisonment in 1949. He died in prison a few years later.

     Burning Man – [19 Pages, 6.7 MB] – Burning Man is an annual gathering that takes place at Black Rock City—a temporary community erected in the Black Rock Desert in Nevada. The event is described as an experiment in community and art, influenced by 10 main principles, including “radical” inclusion, self-reliance and self-expression, as well as community cooperation, gifting and decommodification, and leaving no trace. First held in 1986 on Baker Beach in San Francisco as a small function organized by Larry Harvey and a group of friends, it has since been held annually, spanning from the last Sunday in August to the first Monday in September (the U.S. Labor Day); for example, Burning Man 2015 took place August 30 – September 7, 2015.

     Bull, Gerald – FBI Release #1 – [69 Pages, 30MB]
     Bull, Gerald – FBI Release #2 – [7 Pages, 1MB]Gerald Vincent Bull (March 9, 1928 – March 22, 1990) was a Canadian engineer who developed long-range artillery. He moved from project to project in his quest to economically launch a satellite using a huge artillery piece, to which end he designed the Project Babylon “supergun” for the Iraqi government. Bull was assassinated outside his apartment in Brussels, Belgium in March 1990.

    Burning of the ROTC Building at Kent State University, 1970 – [68 Pages, 27.6MB] – The burning of the ROTC building at Kent State University occurred on May 2, 1970, amid a backdrop of intense national protests against the Vietnam War. Students at the university had been increasingly vocal in their opposition to the war, and tensions reached a boiling point when President Nixon announced the expansion of the war into Cambodia. The ROTC building, symbolizing military presence on campus, was set ablaze by protesters, leading to significant unrest. This event was a precursor to the tragic shootings on May 4, 1970, when the Ohio National Guard opened fire on unarmed students, resulting in four deaths and nine injuries, marking a pivotal moment in the anti-war movement and American history.

    Bush, Barbara– FBI Vault Release #1 – [61 Pages, 4.5MB]
    Bush, Barbara
    – FBI Release #1 – [6 Pages, 2.64MB] – Barbara Pierce Bush (June 8, 1925 – April 17, 2018) was the first lady of the United States from 1989 to 1993 as the wife of President George H. W. Bush, and the founder of the Barbara Bush Foundation for Family Literacy. She previously was the second lady of the United States from 1981 to 1989. Among her six children are George W. Bush, the 43rd president of the United States, and Jeb Bush, the 43rd governor of Florida. She and Abigail Adams are the only two women to be the wife of one U.S. president and the mother of another.

     Busic, Zvonko – FBI Release #1 – [110 Pages, 45.5MB]
     Busic, Zvonko – FBI Release #2 – [96 Pages, 40MB]
     Busic, Zvonko – FBI Release #3 – [70 Pages, 4.5MB]
     Busic, Zvonko – DOJ/OIP Release #1 – [4 Pages, 0.5MB] – Zvonko Bušić (23 January 1946 – 1 September 2013) was a Croatian emigrant, responsible for hijacking TWA Flight 355 in September 1976. He was subsequently convicted of air piracy and spent 32 years in prison in the United States before being released on parole and deported in July 2008. On 10 September 1976, Zvonko and his wife, Julienne, along with Petar Matanić and Frane Pešut, hijacked a commercial Trans World Airlines plane, Boeing 727, Flight 355, heading from New York to Chicago.  The mastermind of the hijacking, Zvonko Bušić, delivered a note to the captain in which he informed him that the airplane was hijacked, that the group had five gelignite bombs on board, and that another bomb was planted in a locker across from The Commodore Hotel in New York with further instructions.   NOTE: There are an additional 7,300 pages on Busic that have yet to be released. If anyone would like to sponsor this file – please CONTACT ME.

     Byers, Louis T. – FBI Release #1 – [6 Pages, 1MB]
     Byers, Louis T. – FBI Release #2 – [326 Pages, 187MB] –  Louis Temple Byers (July 4, 1931 – October 22, 1981) was an early official of the Willis Carto backed National Youth Alliance. Byers was the NYA leader from 1969 through 1971 until Dr. William Pierce assumed control of the organization. Byers was once a paid coordinator for the John Birch Society in Pittsburgh.  Byers founded the Francis Parker Yockey Society. In 1968, Byers was a Pennsylvania organizer for the Gov. George C. Wallace campaign when he ran for president on the American Independent Party ticket. In October 1981 Louis T. Byers died of cancer.

    Byrd, David Harold – FBI Release #1- [18 Pages, 1MB]
    Byrd, David Harold – FBI Release #2- [14 Pages, 1MB] – David Harold “Dry Hole” Byrd (24 April 1900 – 14 September 1986) was a noted Texan producer of petroleum, and a co-founder of the Civil Air Patrol. Byrd’s cousin, polar explorer Richard E. Byrd, named Antarctica’s Harold Byrd Mountains for him.

     Cahill, Thomas J. – [116 Pages, 66.8MB ] – Thomas J. Cahill was the chief of police of San Francisco, California from 1958 to 1970 and still has the distinction of having the longest tenure as chief of police in San Francisco history, serving under three mayors (George Christopher, John F. Shelley, and Joseph Alioto) through decades that saw tremendous social changes and upheavals. People called him Tom. He was born June 8, 1910, on Montana Street on the North Side of Chicago. His family returned to County Kilkenny, Ireland, when he was a child, and Cahill returned to San Francisco in 1930.

    Cain, Herman– [114 Pages, 21MB] – Herman Cain was an American businessman, writer, and political figure, born on December 13, 1945, in Memphis, Tennessee, and passed away on July 30, 2020. He rose to prominence as a successful businessman, most notably serving as the CEO of Godfather’s Pizza, a role in which he notably turned the company’s fortunes around. Cain also served as the chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City Omaha Branch. He gained political attention during his campaign for the 2012 Republican presidential nomination, where he was known for his “9-9-9” tax reform plan, which proposed replacing the current tax system with a 9% business transaction tax, a 9% personal income tax, and a 9% federal sales tax. Cain’s life was a blend of corporate success and political aspiration, making him a notable figure in American business and politics.

     Calvi, Roberto – [34 Pages, 16.3MB ] – Roberto Calvi (13 April 1920 – 17 June 1982) was an Italian banker dubbed “God’s Banker” (Italian: Banchiere di Dio) by the press because of his close association with the Holy See. A native of Milan, Calvi was Chairman of Banco Ambrosiano, which collapsed in one of modern Italy’s biggest political scandals. His death in London in June 1982 is a source of enduring controversy and was ruled a murder after two coroner’s inquests and an independent investigation. In Rome, in June 2007, five people were acquitted of the murder.

    Cameron, Edwin – FBI Release #1 – [55 Pages, 6MB]
    Cameron, Edwin – FBI Release #2 – [9 Pages, 1.2MB] – Edwin Cameron was the NSA’s top analyst on foreign rocketry and missile activities, with an additional specialization in Soviet-era space activities.

    Cameron, Lyle – [129 Pages, 6.5MB ] – Lyle Cameron was a well know skydiver, and published a magazine on the topic.

     Caruso, Pietro – FBI Release #1 – [4 Pages, 1.0MB]
     Caruso, Pietro – FBI Release #2 – [3 Pages, 0.7MB]Pietro Caruso (born 10 November 1899 in Maddaloni – died 22 September 1944 in Rome) was an Italian Fascist and head of the Italian police during the final part of World War II. Together with Herbert Kappler, the German Gestapo chief in Rome, Caruso organised the massacre in Fosse Ardeatine on 24 March 1944 as revenge for an attack the day before by Italian partisans on a column of German soldiers in Rome. 335 people, many of them belonging to a Communist military resistance group, were shot during the massacre.

     Church of Scientology – [1,519 Pages, 749MB] – (Note: Very large file. Recommend right clicking and downloading to your hard drive) Developed by L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology is a religion that offers a precise path leading to a complete and certain understanding of one’s true spiritual nature and one’s relationship to self, family, groups, Mankind, all life forms, the material universe, the spiritual universe and the Supreme Being.  Scientology addresses the spirit—not the body or mind—and believes that Man is far more than a product of his environment, or his genes.

    Citzens’ Council FBI Release #1 – [829 Pages, 192MB]
    Citzens’ Council FBI Release #2 – [22 Pages, 12.9MB]
    Citzens’ Council FBI Release #3 – [20 Pages, 7MB] – The Citizens’ Councils (also referred to as White Citizens’ Councils) were an associated network of white supremacist, extreme right organizations in the United States, concentrated in the South. The first was formed on July 11, 1954. After 1956, it was known as the Citizens’ Councils of America. With about 60,000 members across the United States, mostly in the South, the groups were founded primarily to oppose racial integration of schools following the US Supreme Court ruling in 1954 that segregated public schools were unconstitutional. They also opposed voter registration efforts in the South, where most blacks had been disenfranchised since the turn of the 20th century, and integration of public facilities during the 1950s and 1960s. Members used intimidation tactics including economic boycotts, firing people from jobs, propaganda, and committing violence against citizens and civil-rights activists.

    Cochran, Jr., Johnnie – [99 Pages, 39MB] – Johnnie L. Cochran Jr. (October 2, 1937 – March 29, 2005) was an American lawyer best known for his leadership role in the defense and criminal acquittal of O.J. Simpson for the murder of his wife, Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend, Ron Goldman. Cochran represented Sean Combs during his trial on gun and bribery charges, as well as Michael Jackson, Tupac Shakur, Todd Bridges, football player Jim Brown, Snoop Dogg, former heavyweight champion Riddick Bowe, 1992 Los Angeles riot beating victim Reginald Oliver Denny, and inmate and activist Geronimo Pratt. He represented athlete Marion Jones when she faced charges of doping during her high school track career. Cochran was known for his skill in the courtroom and his prominence as an early advocate for victims of police brutality.

    Cohn, Roy– [748 Pages, 100MB] – Roy Marcus Cohn (February 20, 1927 – August 2, 1986) was an American lawyer best known for being Senator Joseph McCarthy’s chief counsel during the Army–McCarthy hearings in 1954, for assisting with McCarthy’s investigations of suspected communists, as a top political fixer, and for being Donald Trump’s personal lawyer. The Black Vault’s FOIA Case number for reference (no letter is attached to this since it was released electronically) is 1432506-000.

     Crouch, Paul Franklin – [ 76 Pages, 33.5 MB ] – Paul Franklin Crouch (March 30, 1934 – November 30, 2013) was an American Christian broadcaster. Crouch, along with his wife Jan, and televangelist Jim Bakker and Tammy Faye Bakker, founded the Trinity Broadcasting Network in 1973 (TBN).

     Cryptome.org – [125 Pages, 38.5 MB] – Cryptome is a 501(c)(3) private foundation created in 1996 by John Young and Deborah Natsios and sponsored by Natsios-Young Architects. The site collects information about freedom of expression, privacy, cryptography, dual-use technologies, national security, intelligence, government secrecy.

    Cult of the Dead Cow – [73 Pages, 10MB] – Cult of the Dead Cow, also known as cDc or cDc Communications, is a computer hacker and DIY media organization founded in 1984 in Lubbock, Texas.

    Darrow, Clarence – [ File #1 ] – Clarence Darrow was a lawyer from the 1900’s to 1930’s. There have been many books on him, an estimated number of fifty. He was the best orator of his time and was coveted at all kinds of debates.Once he had moved from Ohio, he quickly became the most successful lawyer in Chicago, and grew to be the most famous lawyer in all of history. This is Miscellaneous material and correspondence regarding the famous attorney.

     Dean, Arthur Hobson – [113 Pages, 55MB] – Arthur Hobson Dean (1898–1987) was a New York City lawyer and diplomat who was viewed as one of the leading corporate lawyers of his day, as well having served as a key adviser to numerous U.S. presidents. Dean was chairman and senior partner of Sullivan & Cromwell, where he worked closely with John Foster Dulles. He was the chief U.S. negotiator at Panmunjeom where he helped negotiate the Korean Armistice Agreement, which ended the Korean War, and also helped draft and negotiate the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty in 1963. Dean was a member (and later served on the Board of Directors) of the Council on Foreign Relations, the Asia Society and served as a delegate to the United Nations. He was a member of the Steering Committee of the Bilderberg Group and participated in 14 conferences between 1957 and 1975.

    Deatherage, George– FBI Release #1 – [2,294 Pages, 1.5GB] Please note: This is a extremely large file of 1.5 gigabyte — it is recommended you right click and download the file to your desktop
    Deatherage, George– FBI Release #2 – [100 Pages, 67MB] – George Edward Deatherage (November 15, 1893 – March 31, 1965) was an American political activist and a promoter of nationalism. A native of Minnesota and an engineer by training, he authored several books on construction.

     Delaney, Edward Leo – [260 Pages, 156.9 MB] – Edward Leo Delaney (December 12, 1885 – July 1, 1972) was an American broadcaster of Nazi propaganda during World War II. He was indicted on charges of treason in 1943, but after the war the charges were dropped due to lack of evidence.

    DePugh, Robert Boliver – [1,485 Pages, 799.7MB] – Robert Boliver “Bob” DePugh (15 April 1923 – 30 June 2009) was an American anti-Communist activist who founded the Minutemen militant anti-Communist organization in 1961.

    Douglas, Donald Willis – [8 Pages, 5.2MB] – Donald Wills Douglas Sr. (April 6, 1892 – February 1, 1981) was an American aircraft industrialist and engineer. An aviation pioneer, he designed and built the Douglas Cloudster. Though it failed in its intended purpose—being the first to fly non-stop across the United States—it became the first airplane with a payload greater than its own weight.

    Dummar, Melvin – [15 Pages, 4.4MB] – Melvin Earl Dummar (August 28, 1944 – December 9, 2018) was a Utah man who gained attention when he claimed to have saved reclusive business tycoon Howard Hughes in the Nevada desert in 1967, and to have been awarded part of Hughes’ vast estate. Dummar’s claims resulted in a series of court battles that all ended in rulings against Dummar. A Las Vegas jury determined in 1978 that the will, leaving Dummar $156 million, was a forgery. Dummar’s story was later adapted into Jonathan Demme’s film Melvin and Howard in 1980, in which he was portrayed by actor Paul Le Mat. A 2005 reinvestigation of the circumstances surrounding the so-called Dummar Will yielded new evidence not previously known.

     Duncan, Donald – [242 Pages, 109.2 MB] – Master Sergeant Donald Walter “Don” Duncan (March 18, 1930 – March 25, 2009) was a U.S. Army Special Forces soldier who served during the Vietnam War, helping to establish the guerrilla infiltration force Project DELTA there. Following his return to the United States, Duncan became outspoken in his opposition to the conflict and became one of the leading public figures in opposition to the war. Duncan is best remembered as the military editor of the radical monthly magazine, Ramparts, during the Vietnam conflict and for his testimony to the 1967 Russell Tribunal detailing American war crimes in Vietnam.

    Eisenhower, Milton S.– [20 Pages, 1.2MB] – Milton Stover Eisenhower (September 15, 1899 – May 2, 1985) was an American educational administrator. He served as president of three major American universities: Kansas State University, Pennsylvania State University, and Johns Hopkins University. He was the younger brother of U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower.

     Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) – [9 Pages, 4.44 MB] – The Electronic Frontier Foundation is the leading nonprofit organization defending civil liberties in the digital world. Founded in 1990, EFF champions user privacy, free expression, and innovation through impact litigation, policy analysis, grassroots activism, and technology development. We work to ensure that rights and freedoms are enhanced and protected as our use of technology grows.

     Elmhurst, Ernest F. – [445 Pages, 34MB] – Ernest Frederick Elmhurst, originally named Hermann Fleischkopf, was born on July 27, 1891, and passed away on March 1, 1967. He is most known for his book “The World Hoax” published in 1939. Elmhurst’s activities often placed him in controversial situations, notably his participation as an American delegate in the Pan-Aryan Anti-Jewish Union conference in Erfurt, Germany, in August 1937, sponsored by World Service. He also faced legal challenges, including his role as a defendant in the Great Sedition Trial of 1944. During this time, he worked as a head waiter at the Shoreham Hotel in Washington but was dismissed following the intervention of political gossip columnist Walter Winchell on his national radio show. Additionally, in October 1945, Elmhurst was arrested in New York City, along with others, on charges of unlawful assembly and selling pamphlets on Jewish ritual murder, resulting in a six-month sentence in a work house. Elmhurst also ventured into East Germany secretly in 1952 and 1956 to observe conditions in the communist country​​​​​​​​.

     Epstein, Hedy – [9 Pages, 245.7MB] – Hedy Epstein (August 15, 1924 – May 26, 2016) was a German-born Jewish-American political activist known for her support of the Palestinian cause through the International Solidarity Movement. Born in Freiburg to a Jewish family, she was rescued from Nazi Germany by the Kindertransport in 1939. She immigrated to the United States in 1948, and lived in St. Louis, Missouri, for many years.

    Equifax – [41 Pages, 14.8MB] – Equifax Inc. is a data analytics and technology company that assists organizations and individuals in making informed business and personal decisions. Headquartered in Atlanta, Ga., Equifax operates or has investments in 24 countries in North America, Central and South America, Europe and the Asia Pacific region. It is a member of Standard & Poor’s (S&P) 500® Index, and its common stock is traded on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) under the symbol EFX. Equifax employs over 10,000 employees worldwide.

    FBI Undercover Operations and Guidelines – [ File #1 ] – Although not a historical figure file, it does should the history of the FBI and the domestic surveillance programs. I felt it would be a fit here.

     Feeney, Leonard  – [233 Pages, 131MB]
     Feeney, Leonard Cross References  – [15 Pages, 7MB]Father Leonard Edward Feeney (February 18, 1897 – January 30, 1978) was an American Jesuit priest, poet, lyricist, and essayist. He articulated and defended a strict interpretation of the Roman Catholic doctrine, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (“outside the Church there is no salvation”). He took the position that baptism of blood and baptism of desire are unavailing and that therefore no non-Catholics will be saved. Fighting against what he perceived to be the liberalization of Catholic doctrine, he came under ecclesiastical censure. He was described as Boston’s homegrown version of Father Charles Coughlin for his antisemitism.

    Felt, Mark  – [233 Pages, 131MB] – William Mark Felt Sr. (August 17, 1913 – December 18, 2008) was an American law enforcement officer who worked for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) from 1942 to 1973 and was known for his role in the Watergate scandal. Felt was an FBI special agent who eventually rose to the position of Associate Director, the Bureau’s second-highest-ranking post. Felt worked in several FBI field offices prior to his promotion to the Bureau’s headquarters. In 1980 he was convicted of having violated the civil rights of people thought to be associated with members of the Weather Underground, by ordering FBI agents to break into their homes and search the premises as part of an attempt to prevent bombings. He was ordered to pay a fine, but was pardoned by President Ronald Reagan during his appeal. In 2005, at age 91, Felt revealed that during his tenure as associate director of the FBI he had been the notorious anonymous source known as “Deep Throat” who provided The Washington Post reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein with critical information about the Watergate scandal, which ultimately led to the resignation of President Richard Nixon in 1974. Though Felt’s identity as Deep Throat was suspected, including by Nixon himself it had generally remained a secret for 30 years. Felt finally acknowledged that he was Deep Throat after being persuaded by his daughter to reveal his identity before his death.

     Fensterwald, Bernard  – [280 Pages, 160.8MB] – Bernard “Bud” Fensterwald Jr. (August 2, 1921 – April 2, 1991) was an American lawyer who defended James Earl Ray and James W. McCord Jr. Other notable clients included Mitch WerBell, Richard Case Nagell and the widow of John Paisley.

    Field, Frederick Vanderbuilt – [283 Pages, 14MB] – Frederick Vanderbilt Field was an American leftist political activist and a great-great-grandson of railroad tycoon Cornelius “Commodore” Vanderbilt, disinherited by his wealthy relatives for his radical political views. Field became a specialist on Asia and was a prime staff member and supporter of the Institute of Pacific Relations. He also supported Henry Wallace’s Progressive Party and so many openly Communist organizations that he was accused of being a member of the Communist Party. He was a top target of the American government during the peak of 1950s McCarthyism. Field denied ever having been a party member but admitted in his memoirs, “I suppose I was what the Party called a ‘member at large.’”

     Fischer, Robert “Bobby” Release #1 – [ 14 Pages, 6.6 MB ]
     Fischer, Robert “Bobby” Release #2 – [ 10 Pages, 1.8 MB ] – Robert James “Bobby” Fischer (March 9, 1943 – January 17, 2008) was an American chess grandmaster, the eleventh World Chess Champion. Many consider him the greatest chess player of all time. In 1972, he captured the World Chess Championship from Boris Spassky of the USSR in a match held in Reykjavík, Iceland, publicized as a Cold War confrontation which attracted more worldwide interest than any chess championship before or since. In 1975, Fischer refused to defend his title when an agreement could not be reached with FIDE, the game’s international governing body, over one of the conditions for the match. This allowed Soviet GM Anatoly Karpov, who had won the qualifying Candidates’ cycle, to become the new world champion by default under FIDE rules. There may be additional records, which I have requested. I will add them here, if they become available.

    Fitzgerald, A. Ernest – [15 Pages, 160.8MB] – Arthur Ernest “Ernie” Fitzgerald (July 31, 1926 – January 31, 2019) was an American engineer, a member of the Senior Executive Service in the United States Air Force, and a prominent U.S. government whistleblower.

    Ford, Henry – [ File #1 | File #2 | File #3 | File #4 | File #5 ] – These records consist of seven files involving Henry Ford on various subjects, such as his being the victim of an extortion attempt, kidnapping plots, jury tampering, and a State Department investigation.

    FTX– [11 Pages, 3MB] – FTX, founded in 2017 by Sam Bankman-Fried and Gary Wang, rapidly emerged as one of the world’s leading cryptocurrency exchanges. It distinguished itself with a comprehensive range of products including derivatives, options, volatility products, and leveraged tokens. FTX was designed to cater to both retail and institutional traders, offering innovative features such as a centralized collateral pool and a tiered liquidation model, aimed at reducing clawback risks associated with leveraged trading. The platform quickly gained a reputation for its user-friendly interface, deep liquidity, and a robust, agile infrastructure that could handle high trading volumes and complex trading strategies. FTX’s growth trajectory and influence in the cryptocurrency market were significant, as it ventured into realms like tokenized stocks and prediction markets, further solidifying its position as a versatile and influential player in the digital asset space.

     Fusion GPS – [11 Pages, 3MB] – Fusion GPS is a commercial research and strategic intelligence firm based in Washington, D.C. The company conducts open-source investigations and provides research and strategic advice for businesses, law firms and investors, as well as for political inquiries, such as opposition research. The “GPS” initialism is derived from “Global research, Political analysis, Strategic insight”.

     Garment, Leonard – [ 338 Pages, 15.26 MB ] – Leonard Garment (May 11, 1924 – July 13, 2013) was an American attorney, public servant, and arts advocate. He served U.S. presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford in the White House in various positions from 1969 to 1976, including Counselor to the President, acting Special Counsel to Nixon for the last two years of his presidency, and U.S. Ambassador to the Third Committee at the United Nations.

     Garrison, Jim – [ 160 Pages, 10.13 MB ] – Earling Carothers “Jim” Garrison (November 20, 1921 – October 21, 1992) – who changed his first name to Jim in the early 1960s – was the District Attorney of Orleans Parish, Louisiana, from 1962 to 1973. A member of the Democratic Party, he is best known for his investigations into the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He was played by Kevin Costner in Oliver Stone’s JFK.Requesting additional records on Garrison, other than the above, the FBI informed me that records may have BEEN DESTROYED.  In addition, others may exist at the National Archives. I am awaiting a response.

     General Mills, Inc. – FBI Release #1 – [121 Pages, 70MB]
     General Mills, Inc. – FBI Release #2 – [423 Pages, 20MB]
     General Mills, Inc. – FBI Release #3 – [260 Pages, 150MB]
     General Mills, Inc. – FBI Release #4 – [25 Pages, 3.5MB] – General Mills, Inc., is an American multinational manufacturer and marketer of branded consumer foods sold through retail stores. It is headquartered in Golden Valley, Minnesota, a suburb of Minneapolis. The company markets many well-known North American brands, including Gold Medal flour, Annie’s Homegrown, Betty Crocker, Yoplait, Colombo, Totino’s, Pillsbury, Old El Paso, Häagen-Dazs, Cheerios, Trix, Cocoa Puffs, and Lucky Charms. Its brand portfolio includes more than 89 other leading U.S. brands and numerous category leaders around the world.

    Giacchetto, Dana – FBI Release #1 – [583 Pages, 74.7MB]
    Giacchetto, Dana – FBI Release #2 – [96 Pages, 3.6MB]
    Giacchetto, Dana – US Marsha’s Release #1 [5 Pages, 4MB] – Dana Giacchetto rose to prominence as an investment adviser and social fixture in Manhattan during the nineties. Some of his clients included Leonardo DiCaprio, Cameron Diaz, Matt Damon, and so on. His career went on a downward spiral when he was arrested for misappropriating between $5 million and $10 million of clients’ funds.In 2000, Dana Giacchetto was sentenced to 57 months in prison for securities fraud after stealing between $5 and $10 million from clients at his company Cassandra Group. Giachetto had stolen money from accounts of non-celebrity clients to finance a high-flying lifestyle and give extraordinary returns or mask losses to star clients. He was released in 2003. Giacchetto, notorious both before and after his infamy for partying hard, was discovered by his roommate in his Upper East Side apartment following a bender that included a drunken scuffle with security guards at a Lower East Side club on Friday night. He was pronounced dead early Sunday, a New York Police Dept. official confirmed. Giacchetto was 53.

     Gillars, Mildred – [669 Pages, 321.6MB] – Mildred Elizabeth Gillars (November 29, 1900 – June 25, 1988), nicknamed “Axis Sally” along with Rita Zucca, was an American broadcaster employed by the Third Reich in Nazi Germany to disseminate propaganda during World War II. She was convicted of treason by the United States in 1949 following her capture in post-war Berlin.

    Graham, Billy– [477 Pages, 295.3MB] – William Franklin Graham Jr. (November 7, 1918 – February 21, 2018) was an American evangelist, a prominent evangelical Christian figure, and an ordained Southern Baptist minister who became well-known internationally in the late 1940s. One of his biographers has placed him “among the most influential Christian leaders” of the 20th century.

    Gay, Oscar S.– [27 Pages, 2.95MB] – Oscar S. Gray is a distinguished legal scholar known for his expertise in the field of tort law. As a professor at the University of Maryland School of Law, he has made significant contributions to the understanding and development of tort law principles. Gray is renowned for his co-authorship of the seminal casebook “Harper, James and Gray on Torts,” which is widely used in law schools across the United States. His work has been influential in shaping the way tort law is taught and understood by legal professionals. With a career spanning several decades, Gray has earned a reputation as a leading authority in the field, and his contributions continue to impact the study and practice of tort law.

    Greenberg, Jack– [58 Pages, 26MB] – Jack Greenberg (December 22, 1924 – October 12, 2016) was an American attorney and legal scholar. He was the Director-Counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund from 1961 to 1984, succeeding Thurgood Marshall. He was involved in numerous crucial cases, including Brown v. Board of Education, which ended segregation in public schools.  In all, he argued 40 civil rights cases before the U.S. Supreme Court. He was Alphonse Fletcher Jr. Professor of Law Emeritus at Columbia Law School, and had previously served as dean of Columbia College and vice dean of Columbia Law School. He died on October 12, 2016.

    Guccione, Robert “Bob” (Cross References) – [123 Pages, 20.4MB]
    Guccione, Robert “Bob” (FBI Release #2) – [6 Pages, 20.4MB] – Robert Charles Joseph Edward Sabatini Guccione (December 17, 1930 – October 20, 2010) was an American photographer and the founder of the adult magazine Penthouse in 1965. This was aimed at competing with Hugh Hefner’s Playboy, but with more extreme erotic content, a special style of soft-focus photography, and in-depth reporting of government corruption scandals. By 1982 Guccione was listed in the Forbes 400 wealth list, and owned one of the biggest mansions in Manhattan. However, he made some extravagant investments that failed, and the growth of free online pornography in the 1990s greatly diminished his market. In 2003, Guccione’s publishers filed for bankruptcy and he resigned as chairman.

     Hahn, David Charles “The Radioactive Boy Scout” – [20 Pages, 7.9MB] – David Charles Hahn (October 30, 1976 – September 27, 2016), sometimes called the Radioactive Boy Scout or the Nuclear Boy Scout, was an American man who in 1994, at age 17, attempted to build a homemade breeder reactor. A scout in the Boy Scouts of America, Hahn conducted his experiments in secret in a backyard shed at his mother’s house in Commerce Township, Michigan. While his reactor never reached critical mass, Hahn attracted the attention of local police when he was stopped on another matter and they found material in his vehicle that troubled them, and he warned that it was radioactive. His mother’s property was cleaned up by the Environmental Protection Agency ten months later as a Superfund cleanup site. Hahn attained Eagle Scout rank shortly after his lab was dismantled. While the incident was not widely publicized initially, it became better known following a 1998 Harper’s article by journalist Ken Silverstein. Hahn was also the subject of Silverstein’s 2004 book, The Radioactive Boy Scout.

    Hammer, Armand – [ File #1 | File #2 | File #3 | File #4 | File #5 | File #6 | File #7 | File #8 | File #9 | File #10 | File #11 | File #12 ] – Noted entrepreneur and art collector Armand Hammer had extensive import-export dealings with the SovietUnion and personally negotiated with Premier Lenin during the 1920’s. He later went into the oil business and became head of the Occidental Petroleum Corporation.

     Hart, Pearl M. – [ 34 Pages, 1.76 MB ] – Pearl M. Hart (1890–1975) was a Chicago attorney notable for her work defending oppressed minority groups. Hart was the first woman in Chicago to be appointed Public Defender in the Morals Court. Most notably, she represented children, women, immigrants, lesbians, and gay men, often without fee or for a nominal fee. She attended The John Marshall Law School and was admitted to the Illinois State Bar in 1914.

     Highlander Folk School – [1,376 Pages, 64.50 MB] – The Highlander Folk School was originally established in Grundy County, Tennessee. When Highlander was founded in 1932, the United States was in the midst of the Great Depression. Workers in all parts of the country were met with major resistance by employers when they tried to organize labor unions, especially in the South. Against that backdrop, Horton, West and Dombrowski created the Highlander School “to provide an educational center in the South for the training of rural and industrial leaders, and for the conservation and enrichment of the indigenous cultural values of the mountains.” Horton was influenced by observing rural adult education schools in Denmark started in the 19th century by Danish Lutheran Bishop N. F. S. Grundtvig.  During the 1930s and 1940s, the school’s main focus was labor education and the training of labor organizers. (Source: Ernie Lazar)

    Hillel International– [288 Pages, 120MB] – Hillel International, founded in 1923 at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, is the largest Jewish campus organization in the world. Named after the ancient Jewish sage Hillel the Elder, it aims to enrich the lives of Jewish students and support their Jewish identity and leadership development. Hillel operates on more than 550 college campuses across North America and globally, providing educational, cultural, and social programs. The organization fosters a welcoming and inclusive environment, encouraging students to explore and celebrate Jewish traditions and values. Through its various initiatives and activities, Hillel International plays a pivotal role in strengthening Jewish community life and ensuring the continuity of Jewish culture and heritage among young adults.

    Hiss, Alger (Non Searchable PDF) – [15,823 Pages, 950MB] (Note: Very large file. Recommend right clicking and downloading to your hard drive)
    Hiss, Alger (Searchable PDF .ZIP file) – [15,823 Pages, 7.5GB] (Note: Very large file. Recommend right clicking and downloading to your hard drive)
    Hiss, Alger (Searchable PDF Directory Browse) – [15,823 Pages, Various Sizes]
    Hiss, Alger (FBI “Vault” Release) – [271 Pages, 16.9MB] – Alger Hiss (November 11, 1904 – November 15, 1996) was an American government official who was accused of being a Soviet Union spy in 1948 and convicted of perjury in connection with this charge in 1950. Before he was tried and convicted, he was involved in the establishment of the United Nations both as a U.S. State Department official and as a U.N. official. In later life he worked as a lecturer and author.

    History of the FBI (30 mb) – [ File #1 | File #2 | File #3 | File #4 | File #5 | File #6 | File #7 | File #8 ] – Although not a historical figure file, it does should the history of the FBI and the domestic surveillance programs. I felt it would be a fit here.

    Hitler, Adolf – [742 Pages, 39.9 MB]
    Hitler, Adolf – [3 Pages, 0.8MB] – After requesting additional records, I was informed that the remaining files pertaining to Adolf Hitler were destroyed on March 7, 1973.Adolph Hitler (1889-1945) was leader of the National Socialist (Nazi) Party and Chancellor of Germany from 1933-1945; he led that country into World War II in 1939. The documents in this file range from 1933 to 1947, but primarily fall either in 1933 or between 1945 and 1947. In 1933, the FBI investigated an assassination threat made against Hitler. In the aftermath of Germany’s surrender in 1945, western Allied forces suspected that Hitler had committed suicide but did not immediately find evidence of his death. At the time, it was feared that Hitler may have escaped in the closing days of the war, and searches were made to determine if he was still alive. FBI Files indicate that the Bureau investigated some of the rumors of Hitler’s survival.

    Holtec International [8 Pages, 4.2MB] – Holtec International is a supplier of equipment and systems for the energy industry founded in Mount Laurel, New Jersey and based in Jupiter, Florida, United States. It specializes in the design and manufacture of parts for nuclear reactors. The company sells equipment to manage spent nuclear fuel from nuclear reactors. In July 2014, the New Jersey Economic Development Authority awarded Holtec International a $260 million tax incentive to expand operations at the Port of Camden. Those breaks have come under scrutiny. Holtec makes storage casks used for spent nuclear fuel. It intends to send spent fuel to a site in New Mexico, but has met with resistance. Holtec is scheduled to purchase Indian Point Energy Center from Entergy and decommission it starting in 2021.

    Hook, Sidney – [152 Pages, 107.3MB] – Sidney Hook (December 20, 1902 – July 12, 1989) was an American philosopher of the Pragmatist school known for his contributions to the philosophy of history, the philosophy of education, political theory, and ethics. After embracing Communism in his youth, Hook was later known for his criticisms of totalitarianism, both fascism and Marxism–Leninism. A pragmatic social democrat, Hook sometimes cooperated with conservatives, particularly in opposing Communism. After World War II, he argued that members of such groups as the Communist Party USA and Leninists like Democratic centralists could ethically be barred from holding the offices of public trust because they called for the violent overthrow of democratic governments.

    Hoover Institution (HQ1-5) – [ 355 Pages, 39.96 MB ] – The Hoover Institution is a conservative American public policy think tank located at Stanford University in California. Its official name is the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution, and Peace. It began as a library founded in 1919 by Republican Herbert Hoover, Stanford’s self-proclaimed first student, before he became President of the United States. The library, known as the Hoover Institution Library and Archives, houses multiple archives related to Hoover, World War I, World War II, and other world history. (Source: Ernie Lazar)

    Hoover, J. Edgar – FBI’s “Vault” Release (Part 1-22) – [1,888 Pages, 82.9MB]
    Hoover, J. Edgar – FBI Non-Vault Material, Release #1 – [398 Pages, 190MB] John Edgar Hoover (January 1, 1895 – May 2, 1972), better known as J. Edgar Hoover, was the first Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) of the United States. He was appointed as the fifth director of the Bureau of Investigation — the FBI’s predecessor — in 1924 and was instrumental in founding the FBI in 1935, where he remained director until his death in 1972 at the age of 77. Hoover has been credited with building the FBI into a larger crime-fighting agency than it was at its inception and with instituting a number of modernizations to police technology, such as a centralized fingerprint file and forensic laboratories.

     Horsley, Neal [57 Pages, 20.6 MB] – Otis O’Neal Horsley, Jr. (April 15, 1944 – April 13, 2015) was a militant anti-abortion activist and Christian Reconstructionist known for producing a website called the Nuremberg Files, which provided the home addresses of abortion providers in the United States.

     Hubbard, L. Ron  – FBI Release #1 – [1,225 Pages, 75 MB]
     Hubbard, L. Ron  – VA Release #1 (Large file – right click and “save as…” [472 Pages, 695MB] – Lafayette Ronald Hubbard (March 13, 1911 – January 24, 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard and often referred to by his initials, LRH, was an American author and the founder of the Church of Scientology. After establishing a career as a writer, becoming best known for his science fiction and fantasy stories, he developed a self-help system called Dianetics which was first expounded in book form in May 1950. He subsequently developed his ideas into a wide-ranging set of doctrines and rituals as part of a new religious movement that he called Scientology. His writings became the guiding texts for the Church of Scientology and a number of affiliated organizations that address such diverse topics as business administration, literacy and drug rehabilitation.

     Hubbard, Mary Sue – [339 Pages, 172.8MB] – Mary Sue Hubbard (June 17, 1931 – November 25, 2002) was the third wife of L. Ron Hubbard, from 1952 until his death in 1986. She was a leading figure in Scientology for much of her life. The Hubbards had four children; Diana (born 1952), Quentin (born 1954), Suzette (born 1955), and Arthur (born 1958). She became involved in Hubbard’s Dianetics in 1952, while still a student at the University of Texas at Austin, becoming a Dianetics auditor. She soon became involved in a relationship with Hubbard and married him in March 1952. She accompanied her husband to Phoenix, Arizona, where they established the Hubbard Association of Scientologists – the forerunner of the Church of Scientology, which was itself founded in 1953. She was credited with helping to coin the word “Scientology”. She played a leading role in the management of the Church of Scientology, rising to become the head of the Church’s Guardian’s Office (GO). In August 1978, she was indicted by the United States government on charges of conspiracy relating to illegal covert operations mounted by the Guardian’s Office against government agencies. She was convicted in December 1979 and was sentenced to five years’ imprisonment and the payment of a $10,000 fine. She was forced to resign her post in July 1981 and served a year in prison from January 1983, after exhausting her appeals against her conviction. In the late 1990s, she fell ill with breast cancer and died in 2002.

     Huskey, Harry – [29 Pages, 6.5MB] – Harry Douglas Huskey (January 19, 1916 – April 9, 2017) was an American computer design pioneer. Huskey designed and managed the construction of the Standards Western Automatic Computer (SWAC) at the National Bureau of Standards in Los Angeles (1949–1953). He also designed the G15 computer for Bendix Aviation Corporation, which could perhaps be considered as the first “personal” computer in the world. He had one at his home that is now in the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C.

    ILC Dover / International Latex Corporation – [155 Pages, 86MB] – ILC Dover, LP is a special engineering development and manufacturing company, globally headquartered in Newark, Delaware. ILC Dover specializes in the use of high-performance flexible materials, serving the aerospace, personal protection, and pharmaceutical industries. Best known for making space suits for NASA, ILC Dover outfitted every United States astronaut in the Apollo program, including the twelve that walked on the moon. ILC also designed and manufactured the Space Suit Assembly portion of the Extravehicular Mobility Unit (EMU), worn by astronauts during performance of extra-vehicular activity (EVA) on Space Shuttle missions and on the International Space Station. Other ILC Dover products include the airbag landing devices for Mars Pathfinder and Mars Exploration Rover (MER) missions; lighter-than-air vehicles, including airships, aerostats, and zeppelins; chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear (CBRN) masks and hood systems; and flexible powder-containment solutions for the pharmaceutical industry.

    In-Q-Tel (IQT) – [11 Pages, 1MB] – In-Q-Tel (IQT) is a strategic venture capital firm established in 1999 to bridge the technological innovation of the private sector with the national security needs of the United States. Operating as a nonprofit organization, IQT invests in early-stage companies to advance cutting-edge technologies that align with the mission objectives of U.S. intelligence and defense agencies, particularly the CIA, which was instrumental in its founding. Its portfolio spans areas such as artificial intelligence, cybersecurity, biotechnology, quantum computing, and data analytics, ensuring that the intelligence community has access to emerging tools to address complex global challenges. By fostering innovation and partnerships with startups, In-Q-Tel accelerates the adoption of critical capabilities while maintaining a focus on advancing national security interests.

    Javits, Marian – [29 Pages, 6.5MB] – Marian Ann Borris Javits, sometimes Marion (1925 – February 28, 2017) was an American arts patron. She was married to the politician Jacob K. Javits from 1947 until his death in 1986.

     Jobs, Steve  – [191 Pages, 3.91 MB] – Steven Paul Jobs (1955-2011) was a founder and leader of Apple Inc. (formerly Apple Computer Inc.). In 1991, Jobs was considered for an appointed position on the U.S. President’s Export Council. This release consists of the FBI’s 1991 background investigation of Jobs for that position and a 1985 investigation of a bomb threat against Apple.

     Johnson, Clarence  Leonard “Kelly” – FBI Release #1 – [56 Pages, 30.5MB]
     Johnson, Clarence  Leonard “Kelly” – FBI Release #2 – [9 Pages, 2.6MB]Clarence Leonard “Kelly” Johnson (February 27, 1910 – December 21, 1990) was an American aeronautical and systems engineer. He is recognized for his contributions to a series of important aircraft designs, most notably the Lockheed U-2 and SR-71 Blackbird. Besides the first production aircraft to exceed Mach 3, he also produced the first fighter capable of Mach 2, the United States’ first operational jet fighter, as well as the first U.S. fighter to exceed 400 mph, and many other contributions to a large number of aircraft. As a member and first team leader of the Lockheed Skunk Works, Johnson worked for more than four decades and is said to have been an “organizing genius”. He played a leading role in the design of over forty aircraft, including several honored with the prestigious Collier Trophy, acquiring a reputation as one of the most talented and prolific aircraft design engineers in the history of aviation. In 2003, as part of its commemoration of the 100th anniversary of the Wright Brothers’ flight, Aviation Week & Space Technology ranked Johnson 8th on its list of the top 100 “most important, most interesting, and most influential people” in the first century of aerospace. Hall Hibbard, Johnson’s Lockheed boss, referring to Johnson’s Swedish ancestry once remarked to Ben Rich: “That damned Swede can actually see air.”

     Juggalos – FBI Release #1 – [123 Pages, 60.1MB]
     Juggalos – FBI Release #2 – [33 Pages, 2.2MB]
     Additional records are being denied, as of December 19, 2017, due to a law enforcement investigation (FOIA Exemption (b)(7)(e)  – Juggalo gangs are criminal groups using the name and associated imagery from Juggalo culture, dedicated fans of the rap group Insane Clown Posse or any other Psychopathic Records artist.[5][1][2][3][6] As a result, Juggalos have been classified as a criminal street gang by government and law enforcement agencies, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation,[3] the National Gang Intelligence Center, and the states of Arizona, California, Pennsylvania, and Utah. Juggalo gang sets have been documented by law enforcement in at least 21 states, including those that do not recognize Juggalos as a gang at the state level.

     Kaufman, Mary Metlay  – [1,158 Pages, 52.6 MB] – Mary Kaufman began her career as a labor attorney in New York City in the 1930s. In 1947, she served on the prosecution team of the U.S. Military War Crimes Tribunal in Nuremberg, Germany. From 1948 to 1960, her practice consisted primarily of defending state and national leaders of the U.S. Communist Party indicted under the Smith Act. She also represented individuals called before the House Committee on Un-American Activities and the Subversive Activities Control Board. Kaufman was active in the National Lawyers’ Guild from its inception in the 1930s, and became the first Director of the Guild’s Mass Defense Office in New York City in 1968, supervising the defense of hundreds arrested in political actions. From 1972 to 1976, she taught legal studies as a visiting professor at Antioch College in Ohio, and Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass. She taught courses in labor law; McCarthyism; Nuremberg and international law; racism and the law; and political trials of the 20th Century.

     Keating, Charles – [122 Pages, 61.66MB] – Charles Humphrey Keating, Jr. (December 4, 1923 – March 31, 2014) was an American athlete, lawyer, real estate developer, banker, financier, and activist best known for his role in the savings and loan scandal of the late 1980s.

    Kennan, George – [732 Pages, 55.61 MB] – George Frost Kennan (February 16, 1904 – March 17, 2005) was an American adviser, diplomat, political scientist, and historian, best known as “the father of containment” and as a key figure in the emergence of the Cold War. He later wrote standard histories of the relations between Soviet Union and the Western powers. He was also a core member of the group of foreign policy elders known as “The Wise Men”. Additional records on Kennan are considered classifed.

    Knott, Walter – [55 Pages, 19.8MB] – Walter Marvin Knott (December 11, 1889 – December 3, 1981) was an American farmer who created the Knott’s Berry Farm amusement park in California, introduced the Boysenberry, and made Knott’s Berry Farm boysenberry preserves. Knott was born in San Bernardino, California, and grew up in Pomona, California. In the 1920s, Knott was a somewhat unsuccessful farmer whose fortunes changed when he nursed several abandoned berry plants back to health. The hybrid boysenberry, named after its creator, Rudolph Boysen, was a cross between a blackberry, red raspberry and loganberry. The huge berries were a hit, and the Knott family sold berries, preserves and pies from a Buena Park, California roadside stand. In 1934, Knott’s wife Cordelia (née Hornaday, January 23, 1890 – April 12, 1974) began serving fried chicken dinners, and within a few years, lines outside the restaurant were often several hours long.

    Koch, Frederick Chase – [732 Pages, 89.1MB] – Fred Chase Koch (September 23, 1900 – November 17, 1967) was an American chemical engineer and entrepreneur who founded the oil refinery firm that later became Koch Industries, a privately held company which, under the principal ownership and leadership of Koch’s sons, Charles and David, is listed by Forbes, as of 2015, as the second-largest privately held company in the United States.

    Koischwitz, Max Otto – [337 Pages, 17.4MB] – Max Otto Koischwitz (February 19, 1902 – August 31, 1944) was a naturalized American of German descent who became notorious for his role in disseminating Nazi propaganda to American audiences during World War II. After an academic career at Hunter College, his shift to pro-Nazi sentiment led him back to Germany, where he teamed up with ‘Axis Sally’ Mildred Gillars to broadcast messages aimed at demoralizing Allied troops. Indicted for treason by the United States in 1943, Koischwitz evaded trial due to his death in Berlin from tuberculosis and heart failure in 1944, with the charges against him subsequently dropped for lack of evidence​.

    Konami – [65 Pages, 6.3MB] – Konami is a renowned Japanese entertainment company specializing in video game development and publishing, as well as creating trading card games, arcade machines, and fitness equipment. Founded in 1969 by Kagemasa Kozuki, the company gained global recognition with iconic video game franchises such as Metal Gear, Silent Hill, Castlevania, Pro Evolution Soccer (PES), and Contra. Headquartered in Tokyo, Japan, Konami has diversified its offerings beyond video games, with ventures in amusement parks, pachinko machines, and fitness clubs. Known for its innovative approach and contributions to gaming culture, Konami remains a significant force in the global entertainment industry.

    Koresh, David – [ File #1 | File #2 ] – David Koresh (born Vernon Wayne Howell; August 17, 1959 – April 19, 1993) was the American leader of the Branch Davidians religious sect, believing himself to be its final prophet. Howell legally changed his name to David Koresh on May 15, 1990 (Koresh being the Persian name of Cyrus the Great (کوروش, Kurosh). A 1993 raid by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and the subsequent siege by the FBI ended with the burning of the Branch Davidian ranch outside of Waco, Texas, in McLennan County. Koresh, 54 other adults, and 28 children were found dead after the fire.

    Kuhn, Fritz Julius – FBI Release #1 – [50 Pages, 62MB]
    Kuhn, Fritz Julius – FBI VAULT Release #1-10 – [1,069 Pages, 4.2MB] – Fritz Julius Kuhn was a German-American fascist leader born in Munich, Germany in 1896. He served in the German army during World War I before immigrating to the United States in 1923. Kuhn became the leader of the German American Bund, an organization that promoted Nazism and anti-Semitism in the United States during the 1930s. Kuhn’s leadership was marked by controversy, including allegations of embezzlement and a widely publicized rally at Madison Square Garden in 1939 that turned violent. He was eventually convicted of embezzlement and deported to Germany in 1945. Kuhn’s life serves as a cautionary tale about the dangers of extremist ideologies and the importance of protecting democratic values.

    Kullback, Solomon – FBI Release – [188 Pages, 123.9MB]
    Kullback, Solomon – INSCOM Release – [33 Pages, 6.9MB]Solomon Kullback (April 3, 1907 – August 5, 1994) was an American cryptanalyst and mathematician, who was one of the first three employees hired by William F. Friedman at the US Army’s Signal Intelligence Service (SIS) in the 1930s, along with Frank Rowlett and Abraham Sinkov. He went on to a long and distinguished career at SIS and its eventual successor, the National Security Agency (NSA). Kullback was the Chief Scientist at the NSA until his retirement in 1962, whereupon he took a position at the George Washington University.

    Lear, William – [14 Pages, 3 MB] – William Powell Lear (June 26, 1902 – May 14, 1978) was an American inventor and businessman. He is best known for founding the Lear Jet Corporation, a manufacturer of business jets. He also invented the battery eliminator for the B battery, and developed the 8-track cartridge, an audio tape system. Throughout his career of 46 years, Lear received over 120 patents.

    LeFevre, Robert – [ 90 Pages, 29.88 MB ] – Robert LeFevre (13 October 1911 – 13 May 1986) was an American libertarian businessman, radio personality, and primary theorist of autarchism. (Source: Ernie Lazar)

    Levison, Stanley – FBI “VAULT” Release: – [Part 01|Part 02|Part 03|Part 04|Part 05|Part 06|Part 07|Part 8a|Part 8b|Part 9a|Part 9b|Part 10a|Part 10b|Part 11a|Part 11b|Part 12a|Part 12b|Part 13a|Part 13b|Part 13c|Part 14a|Part 14b|Part 14c] – This FBI file consists of security investigations of Stanley Levison from the 1950’s through the early 1970’s. Levison was a key advisor to Martin Luther King, Jr.
     Levison, StanleyFBI Release #2 (Not on “VAULT” above) – [73 Pages, 40MB] – Stanley David Levison (May 2, 1912 – September 12, 1979) was an American businessman and lawyer who became a lifelong activist in progressive causes. He is best known as an advisor to, and close friend of Martin Luther King Jr., for whom he helped write speeches, raise funds, and organize events.

    Lewis, John L. – [Part 01[1,605 Pages, 81mb]  |Part 02[ 1,088 Pages, 45mb] ] – John L. Lewis, leader of the United Mine Workers of America, along with three other mine officials, was investigated on charges of violating Section 51 of Title 18 of the United States Code. Between 1937 and 1941 they were accused of conspiring to oppress employees from the Mine “B” in Springfield, Illinois from exercising their rights secured to them by the National Labor Relations Act. After a full investigation by the FBI, the Department of Justice decided not to prosecute the case and it was closed in 1943.

     Liedtke, John Hugh – [147 Pages, 8MB] – John Hugh Liedtke (February 10, 1922 – March 28, 2003) was an American petroleum executive. Liedtke moved to Midland, Texas, then opened a law practice with his brother, William, in 1949.  With the future President of the United States George H.W. Bush, the two brothers co-founded the Zapata Corporation in 1953.  In the 1960s the Liedtke brothers acquired control of the South Penn Oil Company and merged it with Zapata to form a new company they called Pennzoil. In the 1980s, during his time as CEO of Pennzoil, he led the company to a court victory over Texaco.

     Liedtke, William – [90 Pages, 5MB] – William C. “Bill” Liedtke Jr (September 27, 1924 — March 1, 1991) was an American petroleum executive, best known as the co-founder of Pennzoil with his older brother J. Hugh Liedtke.

    Lindbergh, Charles – [ Part 1a | Part 1b | Part 2a | Part 2b | Part 2c | Part 3a | Part 3b | Part 4a |Part 4b | Part 4c | Part 5a | Part 5b | Part 6a | Part 6b | Part 7a | Part 7b ] – Many citizens wrote to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover indicating their mistrust of Lindbergh. The populous questioned Lindbergh’s loyalty to the United States. This file consists of letters sent to Director Hoover and newspaper articles written about Mr. Lindbergh.

     Maheu, Robert – [129 Pages, 8MB] – Robert Aime Maheu (October 30, 1917 – August 4, 2008) was an American businessman and lawyer, who worked for the FBI and CIA, and as the chief executive of Nevada operations for the industrialist Howard Hughes.

     Mandela, Nelson – [ 344 Pages, 15.77MB ] – Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela (18 July 1918 – 5 December 2013) was a South African anti-apartheid revolutionary, politician and philanthropist who served as President of South Africa from 1994 to 1999. He was South Africa’s first black chief executive, and the first elected in a fully representative democratic election. His government focused on dismantling the legacy of apartheid through tackling institutionalised racism, poverty and inequality, and fostering racial reconciliation. Politically an African nationalist and democratic socialist, he served as President of the African National Congress (ANC) from 1991 to 1997. Internationally, Mandela was Secretary General of the Non-Aligned Movement from 1998 to 1999.

     Marshall, Thurgood – [1,409 Pages, 47.17MB] – Thurgood Marshall (July 2, 1908 – January 24, 1993) was an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court, serving from October 1967 until October 1991. Marshall was the Court’s 96th justice and its first African American justice. Before becoming a judge, Marshall was a lawyer who was best known for his high success rate in arguing before the Supreme Court and for the victory in Brown v. Board of Education, a decision that desegregated public schools. He served on the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit after being appointed by President John F. Kennedy and then served as the Solicitor General after being appointed by President Lyndon Johnson in 1965. President Johnson nominated him to the United States Supreme Court in 1967.

     Masel, Bennett – [365 Pages, 210MB] – Bennett A. “Ben” Masel (October 17, 1954 – April 30, 2011) was an American writer, publisher, cannabis rights and free speech activist, expert witness for marijuana defendants, and frequent candidate for public office. A skilled chess player, Masel was director of Wisconsin NORML, and organizer of Weedstock and the annual Great Midwest Marijuana Harvest Festival which has been held in front of the Wisconsin State Capitol every autumn since 1971.

     McCorvey, Norma aka Jane Roe of “Roe v. Wade” – [32 Pages, 13.1MB] – Norma Leah McCorvey Nelson; September 22, 1947 – February 18, 2017), better known by the legal pseudonym “Jane Roe”, was the plaintiff in the landmark American lawsuit Roe v. Wade in 1973. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that individual state laws banning abortion are unconstitutional. Later, McCorvey’s views on abortion changed substantially; she became a Roman Catholic activist in the pro-life movement.

     McDonnel Aircraft Corporation – [8 Pages, 0.8MB] – The McDonnell Aircraft Corporation was an American aerospace manufacturer based in St. Louis, Missouri. The company was founded on July 6, 1939 by James Smith McDonnell, and was best known for its military fighters, including the F-4 Phantom II, and manned spacecraft including the Mercury capsule and Gemini capsule. McDonnell Aircraft later merged with the Douglas Aircraft Company to form McDonnell Douglas in 1967.

    Mellon, Matthew – [5 Pages, 1MB] – Matthew Taylor Mellon II (January 28, 1964 – April 16, 2018) was an American businessman who was a chairman of the New York Republican State Committee’s finance committee.

    Mitrokhin, Vasili Nikitich – [8 Pages, 0.5MB] – Vasili Nikitich Mitrokhin (Russian: Васи́лий Ники́тич Митро́хин; March 3, 1922 – January 23, 2004) was a major and senior archivist for the Soviet Union’s foreign intelligence service, the First Chief Directorate of the KGB, who defected to the United Kingdom in 1992 after providing the British embassy in Riga with a vast collection of his notes purporting to be written copies of KGB files. These became known as the Mitrokhin Archive. The intelligence files given by Mitrokhin to the MI6 exposed an unknown number of Russian agents, including Melita Norwood. He was co-author with Christopher Andrew of The Mitrokhin Archive: The KGB in Europe and the West, a massive account of Soviet intelligence operations based on copies of material from the archive. The second volume, The Mitrokhin Archive II: The KGB in the World, was published in 2005, soon after Mitrokhin’s death.

     Moon, Sun Myung – [891 Pages, 61.76MB] – Sun Myung Moon (25 February 1920 – 3 September 2012) was a Korean religious leader, businessman, and political activist.  A messiah claimant, he was the founder of the Unification Church (members of which considered him and his wife Hak Ja Han to be their “True Parents”),  and of its widely noted “Blessing” or mass wedding ceremony, and the author of its unique theology the Divine Principle. He was an ardent anti-communist and advocate for Korean reunification, for which he was recognized by the governments of both South and North Korea. His business interests included News World Communications, an international news media corporation known for its American subsidiary The Washington Times, and Tongil Group, a South Korean business group (chaebol), as well as various affiliated organizations.

     Morros, Boris – FBI Release #1 – [153 Pages, 88.9MB]
     Morros, Boris – FBI Release #2 – [243 Pages, 88.9MB] -Boris Morros (1891–1963) was a Russian-born American film producer, music director, and double agent who played a fascinating role during the Cold War. After immigrating to the United States in the 1920s, he became a prominent figure in Hollywood, working with Paramount Pictures and producing films such as The Flying Deuces with Laurel and Hardy. In the 1930s, he was recruited by the Soviet NKVD to assist in espionage efforts, but by the late 1940s, he began cooperating with the FBI as a counterspy. Morros helped expose Soviet spy networks in the U.S. while continuing to pose as a loyal agent for the Soviets. His story was later dramatized in the 1960 film Man on a String, in which he co-wrote the screenplay and shared details of his life undercover.

     Myrdal, Karl – Cross References – [25 Pages, 2MB] – Karl Gunnar Myrdal (6 December 1898 – 17 May 1987) was a Swedish economist and sociologist. In 1974, he received the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences along with Friedrich Hayek for “their pioneering work in the theory of money and economic fluctuations and for their penetrating analysis of the interdependence of economic, social and institutional phenomena.” When his wife, Alva Myrdal, received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1982, they became the fourth ever married couple to have won Nobel Prizes, and the first to win independent of each other (versus a shared Nobel Prize by scientist spouses). He is best known in the United States for his study of race relations, which culminated in his book An American Dilemma: The Negro Problem and Modern Democracy. The study was influential in the 1954 landmark U.S. Supreme Court Decision Brown v. Board of Education. In Sweden, his work and political influence were important to the establishment of the Folkhemmet and the welfare state. Myrdal and his wife were staunch believers in Social engineering (political science).

     National Rifle Association (NRA) HQ1 – [211 Pages, 24.08MB] – The National Rifle Association of America (NRA) is an American nonprofit organization founded in 1871 that promotes firearm competency, safety, and ownership, as well as police training, marksmanship, hunting and self-defense training in the United States. The NRA is also one of the United States’ largest certifying bodies for firearm safety training and proficiency training courses for police departments, recreational hunting, and child firearm safety. The organization publishes several magazines and sponsors marksmanship events featuring shooting skill and sports.This release of documents concerned the FBI’s investigation into the NRA through the 1950s and 1960s, and the public outrage. Very interesting to read the letters submitted to the FBI regarding their probe of the organization. (Source: Ernie Lazar)

     Nation of Islam – [321 Pages, 15.2MB] – The Nation of Islam (NOI) is an Islamic religious movement founded in Detroit, United States, by Wallace D. Fard Muhammad on July 4, 1930. The Nation of Islam’s stated goals are to improve the spiritual, mental, social, and economic condition of African Americans in the United States and all of humanity.

     National Black Network (NBN) – [5 Pages, 1.6MB] – The National Black Network, or NBN, began operation in July 1973 as the first coast-to-coast radio network wholly owned by African Americans.

     National League of Families of American Prisoners and Missing in Southeast Asia – [31 Pages, 13.9MB] – The National League of Families of American Prisoners and Missing in Southeast Asia is an American 501(c)(3) non-profit organization that is concerned with the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue. According to the group’s web site, its sole purpose is “to obtain the release of all prisoners, the fullest possible accounting for the missing and repatriation of all recoverable remains of those who died serving our nation during the Vietnam War in Southeast Asia.” The League’s most prominent symbol is its famous POW/MIA flag.

     National States’ Rights Party – [69 Pages, 5.21MB] – The National States’ Rights Party was a far right, white supremacist party that briefly played a minor role in the politics of the United States.

     Nordstrom, Inc. – FBI Release #1 – [233 Pages, 9MB]
     Nordstrom, Inc. – FBI Release #2 – [139 Pages, 76MB]
     Nordstrom, Inc. – FBI Release #3 – [5  Pages, 76MB] – Nordstrom, Inc. is an American luxury department store chain. Founded in 1901 by John W. Nordstrom and Carl F. Wallin, it originated as a shoe store and evolved into a full-line retailer with departments for clothing, footwear, handbags, jewelry, accessories, cosmetics, and fragrances. Some stores feature home furnishings and wedding departments, and several have in-house cafes, restaurants, and espresso bars.

     North American Friends of Cuba – [168 Pages, 27MB] – During the 1960s, the “North American Friends of Cuba” emerged as a grassroots coalition united by a common interest in supporting the Cuban Revolution’s ideals and advocating for a constructive dialogue between Cuba and North America. Amidst the Cold War tensions and the U.S. embargo against Cuba, the organization worked to challenge the prevailing narratives, aiming to provide a more nuanced view of the Cuban social and political changes. Its members engaged in organizing educational events, circulating publications, and facilitating humanitarian aid, all while promoting the end of the embargo and fostering peaceful relations, at a time when global geopolitics were deeply divided.

     Olsen, Kenneth – FBI Release #1 – [337 Pages, 160MB]
     Olsen, Kenneth – FBI Release #2 – [311 Pages, 100MB]
     Olsen, Kenneth – FBI Release #3 – [6 Pages, 1MB] – Kenneth Harry “Ken” Olsen (February 20, 1926 – February 6, 2011) was an American engineer who co-founded Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) in 1957 with colleague Harlan Anderson and his brother Stan Olsen. The FBI, in addition to the document releases above, sent a disc of the following photographs:




     Otash, Fred – [42 Pages, 25.1MB] – Fred Otash (January 7, 1922 – October 5, 1992) was a Hollywood police officer, private investigator, and author. Fred Otash has been interviewed numerous times in the media, including in 1957 by Mike Wallace, which can be viewed online at the University of Texas.  Otash worked for Hollywood Research Incorporated, which did business with the tabloid magazine Confidential.  He is also known for being hired by Peter Lawford to investigate Marilyn Monroe.  Fred Otash also was involved in the investigation of the “Wrong Door Raid” involving Frank Sinatra. Otash died at the age of 70 on October 5, 1992. Otash suffered from emphysema and high blood pressure. He wrote about his life in his memoir, Investigation Hollywood: Memoirs Of Hollywood’s Top Private Detective. Fred Otash was the youngest of 6 children and is survived by his daughter, Colleen Otash, and his four sisters, Evelyn Abisalih, Grace Steiner, Selma Otash and Lila Merhige, and one brother Mitchel.

     Pacepa, Ion Mihai – [9 Pages, 2.86MB] – Ion Mihai Pacepa (28 October 1928 – 14 February 2021) was a Romanian two-star general in the Securitate, the secret police of the Socialist Republic of Romania, who defected to the United States in July 1978 following President Jimmy Carter’s approval of his request for political asylum. He was the highest-ranking defector from the former Eastern Bloc, and wrote books and articles on the inner workings of communist intelligence services. His best known work is the book Disinformation. At the time of his defection, Pacepa simultaneously had the rank of advisor to President Nicolae Ceauşescu, acting chief of his foreign intelligence service and a state secretary of Romania’s Ministry of Interior. Subsequently, he worked with the American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in operations against the former Eastern Bloc. The CIA described his cooperation as “an important and unique contribution to the United States”.

     Palfrey, Deborah Jeane – The “D.C. Madame” – [65 Pages, 28.3MB] – Deborah Jeane Palfrey (March 18, 1956 – May 1, 2008) (dubbed the D.C. Madam by the news media) operated Pamela Martin and Associates, an escort agency in Washington, D.C. Although she maintained that the company’s services were legal, she was convicted on April 15, 2008 of racketeering, using the mail for illegal purposes, and money laundering. Slightly over two weeks later, facing a prison sentence of five or six years, she was found hanged. Autopsy results and the final police investigative report concluded that her death was a “suicide”.

     Penkovsky, Oleg – FBI Release #1 – [307 Pages, 21MB]
     Penkovsky, Oleg – FBI Release #2 – [22 Pages, 1MB] – Oleg Vladimirovich Penkovsky (23 April 1919 – 16 May 1963), codenamed HERO, was a Soviet military intelligence (GRU) colonel during the late 1950s and early 1960s. Penkovsky was responsible for informing the United Kingdom about the Soviet emplacement of missiles in Cuba, thus providing both the UK and the United States with the precise knowledge necessary to address rapidly developing military tensions with the Soviet Union. He was the highest ranking Soviet official to provide intelligence for the UK up until that time, and is one of several individuals credited with altering the course of the Cold War.

     Phelps, Fred Waldron – [232 Pages, 11.1MB] – Fred Waldron Phelps, Sr. (November 13, 1929 – March 19, 2014) was an American pastor who headed the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC), an independent Baptist church based in Topeka, Kansas. Phelps attained notoriety primarily from his vehemently anti-gay activism and his picketing of funerals of homosexuals and soldiers.

     Pipes, Richard – [141 Pages, 8.5MB] – Richard Edgar Pipes (July 11, 1923 – May 17, 2018) was an American academic who specialized in Russian history, particularly with respect to the Soviet Union, who espoused a strong anti-communist point of view throughout his career. In 1976, he headed Team B, a team of analysts organized by the Central Intelligence Agency who analyzed the strategic capacities and goals of the Soviet military and political leadership. Pipes was the father of American historian Daniel Pipes.

     Planned Parenthood – FBI Release #1 – [109 Pages, 49.7MB]
     Planned Parenthood – FBI Quote for Remainder of File – [3 Pages, 1.1MB] The FBI estimates there are more than 200,000 pages still to be released on Planned Parenthood.  The cost for release on CD-ROMs is $6,025.00.Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Inc. (PPFA), or Planned Parenthood, is a nonprofit organization that provides reproductive health care in the United States and globally. It is a tax-exempt corporation under Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)(3)[4] and a member association of the International Planned Parenthood Federation (IPPF). PPFA has its roots in Brooklyn, New York, where Margaret Sanger opened the first birth control clinic in the U.S. in 1916. Sanger founded the American Birth Control League in 1921, which changed its name to Planned Parenthood in 1942. PPFA is the largest single provider of reproductive health services, including abortion, in the U.S. In their 2014 Annual Report, PPFA reported seeing over 2.5 million patients in over 4 million clinical visits and performing a total of nearly 9.5 million discrete services including 324,000 abortions. Its combined annual revenue is US$1.3 billion, including approximately US$530 million in government funding such as Medicaid reimbursements. Throughout its history, PPFA and its member clinics have experienced support, controversy, protests, and violent attacks.

     Popkin, Richard – [16 Pages, 1.2MB] – Richard Henry Popkin (December 27, 1923 – April 14, 2005) was an academic philosopher who specialized in the history of enlightenment philosophy and early modern anti-dogmatism. His 1960 work The History of Scepticism from Erasmus to Descartes introduced one previously unrecognized influence on Western thought in the seventeenth century, the Pyrrhonian Scepticism of Sextus Empiricus. Popkin also was an internationally acclaimed scholar on Christian millenarianism and Jewish messianism.

     Possony, Stefan – [270 Pages, 185MB] – Stefan Thomas Possony (March 15, 1913 – April 26, 1995) was an Austrian-born US economist and military strategist and a Senior Fellow and director of International Studies at the Hoover Institution. He conceived the US Strategic Defense Initiative.

     Priebke, Erich (FBI File Release #1) – [19 Pages, 24.57MB]
     Priebke, Erich (FBI File Release #2) – [11 Pages, 0.7MB]
     Priebke, Erich (Department of State Release #1)
     Priebke, Erich (Department of State Release #2) – [67 Pages, 1.2MB] Erich Priebke (29 July 1913 – 11 October 2013) was a German Hauptsturmführer (Captain) in the SS police force (Sipo). In 1996 he was convicted of war crimes in Italy, for participating in the massacre at the Ardeatine caves in Rome on 24 March 1944. 335 Italian civilians (among them 75 Italians of Jewish ancestry) were killed in retaliation for a partisan attack that killed 33 German soldiers. Priebke was one of those held responsible for this mass execution. After the defeat of Nazi Germany, he received help from a bishop stationed in Rome and fled to Argentina on a Vatican passport, where he lived for over 50 years.

     Process Church of the Final Judgement – FBI Release #1 – [95 Pages, 26.7MB]
     Process Church of the Final Judgement – FBI Release #2 – [152 Pages, 8.4MB]
     Process Church of the Final Judgement (IRS Release) – [73 Pages, 11.5MB] – The Process Church of the Final Judgment, commonly known as the Process Church, was a religious group established in London in 1966. Its founders were the British couple Mary Ann MacLean and Robert de Grimston and it spread across parts of the United Kingdom and United States during the latter 1960s and 1970s.

     Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) – [123 Pages, 74.2MB] – The Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) is an American public broadcaster and television program distributor. Headquartered in Arlington, Virginia, PBS is an independently operated non-profit organization and is the most prominent provider of television programs to public television stations in the United States, distributing series such as NOVA, Sesame Street, PBS NewsHour, Masterpiece, Nature, American Masters, Frontline, and Antiques Roadshow.

    This FOIA request began with a $300 estimate on fees ($95 for CD-ROM version), which, although I would normally deny, I was graciously given an anonymous agreement that another person wanted the file released, and would pay the fees.  So, I agreed to the fees, and the request was to be processed accordingly.  Yet, strangely, I was informed there were only 118 pages to be released.  Regardless the reason for this mix-up, here is the file in it’s entirety, along with the original quote letter, and final response.

     Queen Elizabeth II – [107 Pages, 94MB] – Elizabeth II (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary; 21 April 1926 – 8 September 2022) was Queen of the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth realms from 6 February 1952 until her death in 2022. She was queen regnant of 32 sovereign states during her lifetime and was head of state of 15 realms at the time of her death. Her reign of over 70 years is the longest of any British monarch and the longest verified reign of any female head of state in history.

     Radioplane Company – FBI Release #1 – [19 Pages, 1.3MB]
     Radioplane Company – FBI Release #2 – [6 Pages, 3MB] – The Radioplane Company was an American aviation company that produced drone aircraft primarily for use as gunnery targets. During World War II, they produced over 9,400 of their Radioplane OQ-3 model, a propeller-powered monoplane, making it the most-used target aircraft in the US. In the post-World War II era they introduced their Radioplane BTT series, which was produced for years and eventually reached almost 60,000 examples. They also produced several radio control and self-guided missiles, the largest being the GAM-67 Crossbow, which didn’t enter service. The company was purchased by Northrop Corporation in 1952, and moved to one of Northrop’s factories in 1962. One of the last projects carried out at the original Radioplane factory in Van Nuys, California, was the construction of the Gemini Paraglider.

     Ratzinger, Joseph (Pope Benedict XVI) – [16 Pages, 3MB] – Joseph Ratzinger, born on April 16, 1927, in Marktl am Inn, Germany, is a distinguished theologian, scholar, and prelate who served as the 265th Pope of the Roman Catholic Church from 2005 to 2013 under the name Pope Benedict XVI. Known for his intellectual rigor, Ratzinger held various academic and ecclesiastical roles, including serving as Archbishop of Munich and Freising and as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. As Pope, he focused on the preservation of traditional Catholic teachings and values, fostering interfaith dialogue, and addressing pressing issues such as the sexual abuse scandal within the Church. Ratzinger made history as the first Pope to resign in nearly 600 years, citing his declining health.

     Redstone, Sumner – FBI Release #1 – [641 Pages, 400MB]
     Redstone, Sumner – FBI Release #2 – [531 Pages, 37.9MB] – Sumner Murray Redstone (né Rothstein; May 27, 1923 – August 11, 2020) was an American billionaire businessman and media magnate. He was the founder and chairman of the second incarnation of Viacom which was dissolved in 2019 (a year before Redstone’s death) and was the majority owner and chairman of the National Amusements theater chain. Through National Amusements, Redstone, up until his death, was, and his family remains, majority voting shareholder of mass media conglomerate ViacomCBS, in turn, the parent company of the Paramount Pictures film studio, the CBS television network, and various cable networks. According to Forbes, as of April 2020, he was worth US$2.6 billion.Note: There are approximately 3,064 pages remaining, costing $100 to receive. CONTACT The Black Vault if you would like to sponsor the file.

     Retail Credit Company (Equifax) – [62 Pages, 5MB] – Equifax was founded by Cator and Guy Woolford in Atlanta, Georgia, as Retail Credit Company in 1899. Equifax Inc. is an American multinational consumer credit reporting agency and is one of the three largest consumer credit reporting agencies, along with Experian and TransUnion (together known as the “Big Three”). Equifax collects and aggregates information on over 800 million individual consumers and more than 88 million businesses worldwide. In addition to credit and demographic data and services to business, Equifax sells credit monitoring and fraud prevention services directly to consumers.

     Rockefeller, Laurance – [22 Pages, 3.9MB]
     Rockefeller, Laurance – FBI Cross References – [11 Pages, 5.2MB] – Laurance Spelman Rockefeller (May 26, 1910 – July 11, 2004) was an American businessman, financier, philanthropist and major conservationist. He was a prominent third-generation member of the Rockefeller family, being the fourth child of John Davison Rockefeller Jr. and Abigail Greene “Abby” Aldrich. His siblings were Abby, John III, Nelson, Winthrop, and David.

     Rockefeller, Margaretta Happy – FBI Release #1 – [653 Pages, 314.4MB]
     Rockefeller, Margaretta Happy – FBI Release #2 – [19 Pages, 9.2MB] -Margaretta Large Fitler Murphy “Happy” Rockefeller (June 9, 1926 – May 19, 2015) was a philanthropist and the second wife of the 49th Governor of New York and 41st Vice President of the United States, Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller (1908–1979). She was First Lady of New York from her marriage to then-Governor Rockefeller in 1963 until he left office in 1973, and Second Lady of the United States from her husband’s swearing in as Vice President on December 19, 1974 until his term ended on January 20, 1977.

     Rosenberg, Anna M.– [ File #1 18.71MB |  | File #2 34.90MB | File #3 30.93MB | File #4 19.03MB  | File #5 14.24MB  | File #6 17.96MB | File #7 23.96MB  | File #8 20.64MB  | File #9 12.08MB | File #10 4.04MB | File #11 7.53MB  | File #12 20.42MB  | File #13 1.00MB ] [1,843 Total Pages ] – Anna Marie Rosenberg, (June 19, 1902 – May 9, 1983), later Anna Rosenberg Hoffman, was a public official and businesswoman. Born in Budapest, Anna Lederer immigrated with her family to the US in 1912. In 1919 she married Julius Rosenberg, a Jewish American member of the upper class (not to be confused with nuclear spy Julius Rosenberg). During World War II, she served in numerous government positions including regional director of the War Manpower Commission from 1942 to 1945. She ran a consulting business, with customers that included large businesses and public figures. She was awarded the Medal of Freedom in 1945, and was a recipient of the Medal for Merit in 1947, along with two other women, Mary Shotwell Ingraham and Elmira Bears Wickenden. In late 1950, she was nominated for assistant Secretary of Defense. Joseph McCarthy and his staff launched an all-out campaign to oppose her nomination, but she was recommended by the Senate Armed Services Committee. In spite of all opposition, in November 1950 she was named assistant Secretary of Defense, a post she held until January 1953.

     Russell, Bertrand – [337 Pages, 119.5MB] – Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM, FRS (18 May 1872 – 2 February 1970) was a British philosopher, logician, mathematician, historian, writer, social critic, political activist and Nobel laureate. At various points in his life he considered himself a liberal, a socialist, and a pacifist, but he also admitted that he had “never been any of these things, in any profound sense”. He was born in Monmouthshire into one of the most prominent aristocratic families in the United Kingdom. Russell mostly was a prominent anti-war activist; he championed anti-imperialism.  Occasionally, he advocated preventive nuclear war, before the opportunity provided by the atomic monopoly is gone, and “welcomed with enthusiasm” world government. He went to prison for his pacifism during World War I.  Later, he campaigned against Adolf Hitler, then criticised Stalinist totalitarianism, attacked the involvement of the United States in the Vietnam War, and was an outspoken proponent of nuclear disarmament. In 1950 Russell was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature “in recognition of his varied and significant writings in which he champions humanitarian ideals and freedom of thought”.

     Said, Edward – [171 Pages, 95.6MB] – Edward Wadie Said (November 1935 – 25 September 2003) was a professor of literature at Columbia University, a public intellectual, and a founder of the academic field of post-colonial studies. Born in Mandatory Palestine, Said was an American citizen from birth by way of his father Wadir Saïd, a U.S. Army veteran of the First World War (1914–18).  Educated in the Western canon, at British and American schools, Said applied his education and bi-cultural perspective to illuminating the gaps of cultural and political understanding between the Western world and the Eastern world, especially about the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in the Middle East. His main influences were Antonio Gramsci, Michel Foucault, and Theodor Adorno.  This is the complete file, as verified with the FBI October 18, 2016. 

     Sandground, Mark – [56 Pages, 27MB] – Mark Sandground was a well known divorce lawyer.

     Saudi Aramco / Saudi Arabian Oil Company  – [543 Pages, 95.6MB] – Saudi Aramco (Arabic: أرامكو السعودية‎ ʾArāmkū s-Saʿūdiyyah), officially the Saudi Arabian Oil Company (formerly Arabian-American Oil Company), is a Saudi Arabian multinational petroleum and natural gas company based in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It is one of the largest companies in the world by revenue. Saudi Aramco has both the world’s second-largest proven crude oil reserves, at more than 270 billion barrels (4.3×1010 m3),[8] and largest daily oil production of all oil producing companies.

     Scalia, Antonin – [796 Page, 334MB] – Antonin Gregory Scalia (March 11, 1936 – February 13, 2016) was an American jurist who served as an associate justice of the Supreme Court of the United States from 1986 until his death in 2016. He was described as the intellectual anchor for the originalist and textualist position in the Court’s conservative wing. For catalyzing an originalist and textualist movement in American law, he has been described as one of the most influential jurists of the twentieth century,[8] and one of the most important justices in the Supreme Court’s history. Scalia was posthumously awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2018 by President Donald Trump, and the Antonin Scalia Law School at George Mason University was named in his honor.

     Schuller, Robert H. – [1 Page, 0.9MB] – Robert Harold Schuller (September 16, 1926 – April 2, 2015) was an American Christian televangelist, pastor, motivational speaker, and author. In his five decades of television, Schuller was principally known for the weekly Hour of Power television program, which he began hosting in 1970 until his retirement in 2010. Schuller began broadcasting the program from the Neutra Sanctuary, with the encouragement of longtime friend Billy Graham after Schuller visited him in 1969. He was also the founder of the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, California, where the Hour of Power program was later broadcast.

    There is believed to be a file on Robert Schuller, but the FBI claims it was in a facility devastated by a flood, so it is inaccessible. I am continuing to attempt to access the records, and will post updates when they happen.

     Sheinbaum, Stanley – FBI Release #1 – [355 Page, 14MB]
     Sheinbaum, Stanley – FBI Release #2 – [53 Page, 3MB] – Stanley K. Sheinbaum (June 12, 1920 – September 12, 2016) was an American peace and human rights activist. In 1971, Sheinbaum was asked to help organize the Daniel Ellsberg Pentagon Papers defense team. He helped assemble the team of attorneys and became the main fundraiser and spokesperson, raising nearly one million dollars from over 25,000 contributors.

     Silkwood, Karen Gay – [537 Pages, 33.2MB] – Karen Gay Silkwood (February 19, 1946 – November 13, 1974) was an American chemical technician and labor union activist known for raising concerns about corporate practices related to health and safety of workers in a nuclear facility. Her mysterious death received extensive coverage and was the subject of a victorious lawsuit against chemical company Kerr-McGee. Silkwood was portrayed by Meryl Streep in Mike Nichols’ 1983 Academy Award-nominated film Silkwood.

    She worked at the Kerr-McGee Cimarron Fuel Fabrication Site plant near Crescent, Oklahoma, United States. Silkwood’s job was making plutonium pellets for nuclear reactor fuel rods. This plant experienced theft of plutonium by workers during this era. She joined the union and became an activist on behalf of issues of health and safety at the plant as a member of the union’s negotiating team, the first woman to have that position at Kerr-McGee. In the summer of 1974, she testified to the Atomic Energy Commission about her concerns. For three days in November, she was found to have plutonium contamination on her person and in her home. That month, while driving to meet with David Burnham, a New York Times journalist, and Steve Wodka, an official of her union’s national office, she died in a car crash under unclear circumstances.

    Note: On June 28, 2016, the FBI informed me that additional records (in addition to the above) were destroyed on July 15, 1992. I was informed these records may have pertained to Karen Silkwood, but they are now destroyed. In addition, other records exist at the National Archives, and total 724 total pages; ~647 pages released in full, 39 pages released in redacted form and 37 pages withheld in full. I am unable to purchase them for 80 cents per page, but if anyone would like to, or you are around College Park, Maryland, you can see these files in person, requesting FBI case file 117-HQ-2702, located in the Motion Picture research room.

    Silverstein Properties – FBI “Cross References” –  [30 Pages, 13MB] – Silverstein Properties, Inc. (SPI) is a family held, full-service real estate development, investment and management firm based in New York City. Founded in 1957 by Chairman Larry Silverstein, the company specializes in developing, acquiring, and managing office, residential, hotel, retail, and mixed-use properties. The firm is New York City’s fifth-largest commercial landlord.

    Simpson, Wallis– [120 Pages, 32.3MB] – Wallis Simpson (born Bessie Wallis Warfield; 19 June 1896 – 24 April 1986), later known as the Duchess of Windsor, was an American socialite whose intended marriage to the British king Edward VIII caused a constitutional crisis that led to Edward’s abdication.

     Socialist Party – [ File #1 (NYC-3) 23.43MB | File #2 (NYC-4) 28.18MB ] – [ 711 Total Pages ] – Doctor Frederick Charles Schwarz (15 January 1913 – 24 January 2009) was an Australian physician and political activist who founded the Christian Anti-Communism Crusade (CACC). He made a number of speaking tours in the USA in the 1950s, and in 1960 moved his base of operations to California.  He was the author of the international bestseller, You Can Trust The Communists (to be Communists) (Prentice Hall, 1960). Dr Schwarz worked with his wife, Lillian Schwarz, from abroad and, in his later years, at their home in Camden, near Sydney, in the Australian state of New South Wales. (Source: Ernie Lazar)

     Starr, Kenneth  – FBI Vault Release #1 – [318 Pages, 12MB]
     Starr, Kenneth  – FBI Vault Release #2 – [170 Pages, 9MB] – Kenneth Starr (1946–2022) was an American lawyer, judge, and educator best known for serving as the independent counsel who led the investigation into President Bill Clinton during the 1990s, which encompassed the Whitewater real estate matter and ultimately the Monica Lewinsky scandal. A graduate of George Washington University and Duke Law School, he clerked for Chief Justice Warren Burger before entering government service. Starr served as a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit and later as Solicitor General under President George H. W. Bush. Beyond government work, he held positions in private practice, academia, and university leadership, including as president and chancellor of Baylor University. His career was marked by significant influence in American law and politics as well as controversy over the scope and impact of his investigations.

     Stone, Jeremy J.  – [177 Pages, 13MB] – Jeremy J. Stone (November 23, 1935 – January 1, 2017) was president of the Federation of American Scientists from 1970 to 2000, where he led that organization’s advocacy initiatives in arms control, human rights, and foreign policy. In 2000, he was succeeded as president by Henry Kelly. Stone continued his work at a new organization called Catalytic Diplomacy. Stone was the son of the journalist I. F. Stone.

    Sudarkasa, Niara  – [231 Pages, 98MB] – Niara Sudarkasa (1938–2019) was an influential African American anthropologist, scholar, and university president who broke new ground as the first female president of Lincoln University in Pennsylvania. Born Gloria Albertha Marshall in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, she developed a passion for African studies, earning a Ph.D. in anthropology from Columbia University. Her extensive research focused on African and African diaspora cultures, particularly in West Africa, and she published widely on the roles of women, family structures, and social organization in African societies. Sudarkasa was a trailblazer in higher education, championing diversity, community engagement, and cross-cultural understanding, while also working to improve educational opportunities for underrepresented students. Her legacy endures through her contributions to anthropology, her pioneering leadership, and her advocacy for Black empowerment and education.

     Sullivan & Cromwell Llp  – [119 Pages, 49.5MB] – Sullivan & Cromwell LLP is an international law firm headquartered in New York City. It has gained renown for its business and commercial law practices and its impact on international affairs.  Founded in 1879 by Algernon Sydney Sullivan and William Nelson Cromwell, Sullivan & Cromwell has served many of the world’s foremost industrial, commercial and financial enterprises.

    Tencent Holdings, Inc. – [135 Pages, 1MB] – Tencent Holdings Ltd., also known as Tencent, is a Chinese multinational technology and entertainment conglomerate and holding company headquartered in Shenzhen. It is also the largest company in the gaming industry in the world based on its investments. It operates the instant messengers Tencent QQ and WeChat, and QQ.com. It also owns Tencent Music.

    Theoharis, Athan – [25 Pages, 12.5MB] – Athan George Theoharis (August 3, 1936 – July 3, 2021) was an American historian, professor of history at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. As well as his extensive teaching career, he was noteworthy as an expert on the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), J. Edgar Hoover, and U.S. intelligence agencies, having written and edited many books on these and related subjects.

     Thompson, Kenneth P. – [135 Pages, 45.4MB] – Kenneth P. “Ken” Thompson (March 14, 1966 – October 9, 2016) was the District Attorney of Kings County, New York, from 2014 until his death from cancer on October 9, 2016. Thompson began as an attorney in the United States Treasury Department in Washington, D.C., where he served as Special Assistant to former Treasury Department Undersecretary for Enforcement and then Secretary General of Interpol, Ronald K. Noble. In 1995 Thompson accepted a position as an Assistant U.S. Attorney under Zachary W. Carter, in the United States Attorney’s Office in Brooklyn. During his tenure, he worked with Loretta Lynch as a member of the federal prosecution team in the 1997 trial of former New York City police officer Justin Volpe, who was accused of sodomizing Abner Louima inside a bathroom at the 70th Precinct in Brooklyn. The watershed police brutality trial, at which Thompson delivered the opening prosecution arguments, resulted in Volpe changing his plea from ‘not guilty’ to ‘guilty’.

    Torres Advanced Enterprise Solutions – FBI Release #1 – [74 Pages, 2.5MB]
    Torres Advanced Enterprise Solutions – FBI Release #2 – [163 Pages, 100MB] – Torres Advanced Enterprise Solutions (Torres) is a global security, cyber security, information technology and software consulting firm headquartered in Washington, D.C. with a global presence in Africa, Asia, the Americas, Europe and the Middle East. Torres serves the highest levels of U.S. and foreign governments and commercial enterprises around the world. Our personnel consistently go the extra mile to provide reliable and comprehensive services to our clients regardless of the challenge. As a result, Torres has been named an Industry Leader in Government and Commercial Services by Inc. and Smart CEO magazines eight times since 2008.

    True, James– FBI Release #1 – [503 Pages, 328.6MB]
    True, James– FBI Release #2 – [89  Pages, 5.3MB] – James B. True Jr. (July 1, 1880 – September 1946) was a critic of the administration of Franklin Delano Roosevelt (FDR). His opposition focused on New Deal programs and used anti-Semitic and isolationist themes. He published a newsletter and headed James True Associates, a personally-financed one-man enterprise.  Note: There are many different files on James True at the National Archives (see cover letter to this FOIA release.)  I did not pursue getting these reviewed for release.

     Trump, Fred C. – [8 Pages, 2.2MB] – Frederick Christ “Fred” Trump (October 11, 1905 – June 25, 1999) was an American real estate developer and philanthropist, and the father of United States Appeals Judge Maryanne Trump Barry as well as businessman and 2016 Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump. Trump’s development company built and managed single-family houses in Queens, barracks and garden apartments for U.S. Navy personnel near major shipyards along the East Coast, and more than 27,000 apartments in New York City. During his business career, Trump was investigated by a U.S. Senate committee (1954) for profiteering from public contracts, was investigated by the U.S. Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division (1973) for civil rights violations — and was the subject of numerous critiques by noted folk icon Woody Guthrie.

    Note: In March of 2016, I requested the file for Fred C. Trump. I was given a denial that no records existed. I then filed a request for cross references to Fred C. Trump in other files, and gave some suggested locations which included:

    • Manny Ciminello; construction contractor, racketeer, tied to S & A Concrete;
    • Paul Castellano; head of Gambino Mob; secret owner of S & A Concrete;
    • Fat Tony Salerno; head of Genovese Mob; secret owner of S & A Concrete;
    • S & A Concrete; Mob-front concrete company, run by Nick Auletta; built Trump Tower and Trump Plaza;
    • Willie Tomasello; Fred Trump’s partner on Beach Haven; Genovese associate;
    • Nicky Scarfo; Atlantic City/Philadelphia Crime Boss; Cleveland Wrecking Co;
    • Cleveland Wrecking Company
    • Wachtel Plumbing
    • Teddy Maritas; head of Carpenters Union;
    • Circle Industries;
    • John Cody;  head of Teamsters Local 282; jailed for racketeering
    • Nick Auletta: President of S & A Concrete, cement company;
    • Joe DePaolo; President of Dic Underhill Co; helped build Trump Village with Fred Trump;
    • Danny Sullivan; partner in SSG, Inc; deal-making arm of Scarfo Mob
    • Kenny Shapiro; scrap-metal dealer, partner SSG; principle financier for Scarfo’s Philadelphia Crime Organization.

    A few months after this request, the FBI posted this 8 page release. Once I receive their response letter in the mail, I will add that to the file, along with anything else that may have come up.

     Trump, John G. – [16 Pages, 2.2MB] – John George Trump (August 21, 1907 – February 21, 1985) was an American electrical engineer, inventor, and physicist. He was a recipient of U.S. President Ronald Reagan’s National Medal of Science, and a member of the National Academy of Engineering. Trump was noted for developing rotational radiation therapy. Together with Robert J. Van de Graaff, he developed one of the first million-volt X-ray generators. He was also the uncle of President-elect of the United States, Donald Trump.  These documents consist of the entire FOIA case file, and processing notes, to the request I did wherein it was told to me files relating to John G. Trump were destroyed.

    Trump Barry, Maryanne – [406 Pages, 2.2MB] – Maryanne Trump Barry (1937–2023) was an American attorney and federal judge, and the eldest sister of former U.S. President Donald Trump. Born in New York City to Fred Trump and Mary Anne MacLeod Trump, she pursued higher education at Mount Holyoke College, Columbia University, and Hofstra University School of Law. Barry began her legal career as an assistant U.S. attorney in 1974. In 1983, she was appointed by President Ronald Reagan to the U.S. District Court for the District of New Jersey, and later elevated by President Bill Clinton in 1999 to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. She assumed senior status in 2011 and retired in 2019 amid an investigation into alleged judicial misconduct related to her family’s financial dealings. Barry passed away in New York City on November 13, 2023, at the age of 86.

    Trump Organization – [154 Pages, 25.8MB] – The Trump Organization is the collective name for a group of approximately 500 business entities of which Donald Trump, the current U.S. President, is the sole or principal owner. Approximately 250 entities use the Trump name.  Donald Trump’s grandmother Elizabeth Christ Trump and father Fred Trump founded the organization in 1923 as E. Trump & Son, and it was led from 1971 to 2017 by Donald Trump, who renamed the company around 1973.

    I first requested these files in 2016, but received a “no records” response. I refiled again in late 2018, and received 150+ pages. After investigating why the new records were found, Jason Leopold and Ryan Shapiro took the FBI to court, and got them to release the records. Interesting that they fully denied records existed prior to this.

    University Bible Fellowship – [27 Pages, 4.7MB] – The University Bible Fellowship is an international evangelical non-denominational Christian entity that originated in South Korea in 1961. It was founded through a partnership between a Korean, Samuel Chang-Woo Lee, and Sarah Barry, an American Presbyterian missionary who was sent to South Korea. The international headquarters of UBF is in Chicago. The group members are concentrated in South Korea, but has chapters in 91 countries including American universities and community colleges. The organization’s stated goal is student evangelism. Some outside observers and former members describe the group as cult-like, excessively controlling, spiritually damaging, or abusive.

    FBI Files: Unsolved Mysteries TV Show – [1,581 Pages, 62MB] – Unsolved Mysteries is an American mystery documentary television program, created by John Cosgrove and Terry Dunn Meurer. Documenting cold cases and paranormal phenomena, it began as a series of seven specials, presented by Raymond Burr, Karl Malden, and Robert Stack, beginning on NBC on January 20, 1987, becoming a full-fledged series on October 5, 1988, hosted by Stack. After nine seasons on NBC, the series moved to CBS for its 10th season on November 13, 1997. After adding Virginia Madsen as a co-host during season 11 failed to boost slipping ratings, CBS canceled the series after only a two-season, 12-episode run on June 11, 1999. The series was revived by Lifetime in 2000, with season 12 beginning on July 2, 2001. Unsolved Mysteries aired 103 episodes on Lifetime, before ending on September 20, 2002, an end that coincided with Stack’s illness and eventual death.In 2017, the show’s creators expressed interest in reviving the series. On January 18, 2019, Netflix picked up a reboot of the series.

    Uranium One – [25 Pages, 7.3MB] – Uranium One is a Russian-Canadian uranium mining company with headquarters in Toronto, Ontario. It has operations in Australia, Canada, Kazakhstan, South Africa and the United States. In 2010, Rosatom, the Russian state-owned uranium monopoly, through its subsidiary ARMZ, bought a 51.4% controlling interest in the Canadian company. In January 2013 Rosatom purchased the remaining 48.6% of the company, at a value of $1.3 billion. Since 2015 the sale of Uranium One to Rosatom had been characterized by conservative media in the United States as a bribery scandal involving Hillary Clinton and the Clinton Foundation; no evidence of wrongdoing has been found after three years of allegations, an FBI investigation, and the 2017 appointment of a Federal Attorney to evaluate the investigation.

    Uranium One Related FOIA Requests – [29 Pages,5.8MB] – In September of 2018, I requested a copy of all FOIA requests dealing with Uranium One that were filed with the FBI. In February of 2019, I received a copy of who was going after records.

    VARO, Inc. – FBI Release #1 – [139 Pages, 17.7MB]
    VARO, Inc. – FBI Release #2 – [171 Pages, 8.5MB]
    VARO, Inc. – Navy #1 – [5 Pages, 1MB]
    VARO, Inc. – DoJ Denial – [5 Pages, 1MB] – Varo manufactures military night vision viewing systems, high voltage rectifiers and multipliers used in consumer and industrial electronic products, frequency control devices for the U.S. Navy, and marine searchlights.

    Venceremos Brigade – [802 Pages, 396MB] – The Venceremos Brigade is a politically motivated international organization founded in 1969 by members of the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) and officials of the Republic of Cuba. It was formed as a coalition of young people attempting to show solidarity with the Cuban Revolution by working side by side with Cuban workers, challenging U.S. policies towards Cuba, including the United States embargo against Cuba. The yearly brigade trips, which as of 2010 have brought more than 9,000 people to Cuba, continue today and are coordinated with the Pastors For Peace Friendship Caravans to Cuba. The 48th Brigade travelled to Cuba in July 2017.

    According to FOIA case 1496188-001, there are approximately 52,712 more pages available, which will cost $1,585.00 to get. If anyone wants to sponsor this file, please let me know, and I am happy to archive it.

     Wackenhut Corporation – FBI Release #1 – [ File #1 51.0MB | File #2 19.09MB | File #3 30.36MB | File #4 20.36MB ] – [ 1,023 Total Pages ]
     Wackenhut Corporation – FBI Release #2 – [488 Pages, 168.6MB]
     Wackenhut Corporation – FBI Release #3 – [146 Pages, 25.8MB]
     Wackenhut Corporation – FBI Release #4 – [190 Pages, 98MB] – The Wackenhut Corporation was founded in 1954, in Coral Gables, Florida, by George Wackenhut and three partners (all former FBI agents). In 2002 the company was acquired for $570 million by Danish corporation Group 4 Falck (itself then merged to form British company G4S in 2004). In 2010, G4S Wackenhut changed its name to G4S Secure Solutions (USA) to reflect the new business model.  

     Wade, Henry Manasco – [374 Pages, 358MB] – Henry Menasco Wade (November 11, 1914 – March 1, 2001) was a Texas lawyer who served as District Attorney of Dallas from 1951 to 1987. As such, he participated in two of the most notable U.S. court cases of the 20th century: the prosecution of Jack Ruby for killing Lee Harvey Oswald, and the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision legalizing abortion, Roe v. Wade. In addition, Wade was District Attorney when Randall Dale Adams, the subject of the documentary film The Thin Blue Line, was convicted in the murder of Robert Wood, a Dallas police officer. He is also the longest-serving district attorney in United States history.

     Weisberg, Harold NARA Release #1 – [22 Pages, 2.2MB] – Harold Weisberg (April 8, 1913 – February 21, 2002) served as an Office of Strategic Services officer during World War II, a U.S. Senate staff member and investigative reporter, an investigator for the Senate Committee on Civil Liberties, and a U.S. State Department intelligence analyst who devoted 40 years of his life to researching and writing about the assassinations of John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King. He wrote ten self-published and published books and approximately thirty-five unpublished books related to the details for those assassinations, mostly with respect to Kennedy’s assassination. Weisberg was a strong critic of the Warren Commission report and of the methods used in investigating President Kennedy’s murder. In this regard, he was avant-garde, embarking on a course that many other conspiracy theorists would later come to follow. Weisberg is best known for his seminal work, Whitewash, where he wrote: “Following thousands of hours of research in and analysis of the vast, chaotic, deliberately disorganized, padded and largely meaningless 26 volumes of the testimony and exhibits of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy and its 900-page Report – millions of words of which are not needed and are merely diversionary – I published the results of my investigation in a book, Whitewash: The Report on the Warren Report. In this book, I establish that the inquiry into the assassination was a whitewash, using as proof only what the Commission avoided, ignored, misrepresented and suppressed of its own evidence.” On February 21, 2002, Weisberg died of cardiovascular disease at his home in Frederick, Maryland.

    Weishaupt, Kurt – [39 Pages, 15MB] – Kurt Weishaupt (1913–2004) was a Swiss-born artist, scholar, and innovator, known for his contributions to both the arts and sciences during a century marked by profound cultural and technological change. Born in Zurich, Weishaupt displayed an early aptitude for painting and engineering, a rare combination that shaped his multifaceted career. He became renowned for his avant-garde artwork that blended abstract expressionism with elements of scientific precision, earning him recognition in European art circles during the mid-20th century. Beyond the canvas, he was an inventor and thinker, holding several patents for mechanical designs inspired by his fascination with geometry and motion. Weishaupt’s life reflected a relentless curiosity and dedication to bridging the gap between creativity and functionality, leaving a legacy celebrated by artists and engineers alike.

     Welch, Jr. Robert Henry – [5,081 Pages, 299MB] – Robert Henry Winborne Welch Jr. (December 1, 1899 – January 6, 1985) was an American businessman, political activist, and author. He was independently wealthy following his retirement and used that wealth to sponsor anti-Communist causes. He co-founded the conservative group the John Birch Society (JBS) in 1958 and tightly controlled it until his death. He became a highly controversial target of criticism by liberals, as well as some conservatives, including William F. Buckley Jr.

    Please Note: Additional Records do exist, which total 8,271 more pages, and will cost $255 to receive them on CDs.

     West, Rev. Donald L. – [ File #1File #2File #3File #4File #5File #6File #7File #8File #9File #10File #11File #12File #13File #14 |  ] [ 2,398 Total Pages ] –  No biography available. (Source: Ernie Lazar)

     Wheeler, Roger Milton – [1,369 Pages, 56MB ] – Roger Wheeler (February 27, 1926 — May 27, 1981) was an American businessman, the former chairman of Telex Corp. and former owner of World Jai Alai. In 1981, he was murdered at age 55 in his car while preparing to leave Southern Hills Country Club in Tulsa, Oklahoma, following his weekly game of golf. He was purportedly murdered for uncovering an embezzlement scheme that was going on at his business, World Jai Alai. After retiring from the FBI, H. Paul Rico took a job as head of security for World Jai Alai. He saw the perfect opportunity to set up his former confidential informants Whitey Bulger and Steve Flemmi in a skimming operation there. The Winter Hill Gang skimmed $10,000 per week from the parking lot operation at World Jai Alai.  Please note: Check out the bookmarks in the PDF file to differentiate between the file numbers and section IDs of this release.

    There are more files relating to Mr. Wheeler. As of June of 2016, the FBI informed me there were 8,160 potentially responsive pages. To order, it will be $250 to receive on CD-ROMs. If you are interested in sponsoring this file, CONTACT ME.

     White Supremacist Groups – [ 78 Pages, 10.94MB ] – White supremacy is the belief of, and/or promotion of the belief, that white people are superior to people of other racial backgrounds and that therefore whites should politically, economically and socially dominate non-whites. The term is also used to describe a political ideology that perpetuates and maintains the social, political, historical and/or industrial dominance of whites. Different forms of white supremacy have different conceptions of who is considered white, and different white supremacist identify various groups as their primary enemy.

     Whitman, Charles – [ 757 Pages ]
    1335599-0 – Preprocessed CD No Charge Letter – 2678411.pdf 432K
    1335599-0 – 63-11732 – Section 1 Serial 1 COVER SHEETMediaPage.PDF 100MB
    1335599-0 – 63-11732 – Section 2 Serial 47 COVER SHEETMediaPag.PDF 75MB
    1335599-0 – 63-11732 – Section 3 Serial 121 COVER SHEETMediaPa.PDF 101MB
    1335599-0 – 63-11732-Sub A – Section 1 Serial 1 COVER SHEETMediaPage.PDF 103MB
    1335599-0 – Documents – Section 1 Serial COVER SHEETMediaPages.PDF 77MBCharles Joseph Whitman (June 24, 1941 – August 1, 1966) was an American engineering student at the University of Texas, former U.S. Marine, and a mass murderer who killed 16 people. In the early morning hours of August 1, 1966, Whitman murdered his wife and mother in their homes. Later that day, he brought a number of guns, including rifles, a shotgun, and handguns, to the campus of the University of Texas at Austin where, over an approximate 90 to 95 minute period, he killed 14 people and wounded 32 others in a mass shooting in and around the Tower. Whitman shot and killed three people inside the university’s tower and eleven others after firing at random from the 28th-floor observation deck of the Main Building. Whitman was shot and killed by Austin police officer Houston McCoy.

     Widmaier-Picasso, Maya – [7 Pages, 2MB] – Maya Widmaier-Picasso was a French art expert and the eldest daughter of renowned artist Pablo Picasso and his muse, Marie-Thérèse Walter. Growing up in the heart of the art world, Maya developed a profound understanding of her father’s work and has dedicated much of her life to preserving and promoting his legacy. She has been instrumental in authenticating and curating numerous Picasso exhibitions and has contributed significantly to art historical scholarship. Maya’s deep personal and professional connection to her father’s oeuvre makes her a prominent figure in the art community.

     Wolfe, Bertram – FBI “Vault Release” – [ File #1, 21.4MB | File #2 23.09MB | File #3 14.05MB ] [ 546 Total Pages ]
     Wolfe, Bertram – [693 Pages, 139.6MB]Bertram David “Bert” Wolfe (1896–1977) was an American scholar and former communist best known for biographical studies of Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Leon Trotsky, and Diego Rivera.

     Wolfe, Ella Goldberg – [347 Pages, 181.3MB] – Ella Goldberg Wolfe, who helped her husband Bertram (see above) and others found the American Communist Party, died January 8, 2000, in her Palo Alto, California home. By the time she died at age 103, she had lived a dramatic life of political intrigue, travel and scholarship in three centuries. She spent much of the last 20 years organizing her and her husband’s papers at the Hoover Institution Archives. 

     Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom – [4,432 Pages, 2.94GB] – Note: This is a very large file. It is recommended you right click and download to your desktop. –  The Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom (WILPF) is a non-profit non-governmental organization working “to bring together women of different political views and philosophical and religious backgrounds determined to study and make known the causes of war and work for a permanent peace” and to unite women worldwide who oppose oppression and exploitation. WILPF has national sections in 37 countries. The WILPF is headquartered in Geneva and maintains a United Nations office in New York City.

     Wriston, Walter – [84 Pages, 32.3MB] – Walter Bigelow Wriston (August 3, 1919 – January 19, 2005) was a banker and former chairman and CEO of Citicorp. As chief executive of Citibank / Citicorp (later Citigroup) from 1967 to 1984, Wriston was widely regarded as the single most influential commercial banker of his time. During his tenure as CEO, the bank introduced, among other innovations, automated teller machines, interstate banking, the negotiable certificate of deposit, and “pursued the credit card business in a way that no other bank was doing at the time”. With then New York Governor Hugh Carey and investment banker Felix Rohatyn, Wriston helped save New York City from bankruptcy in the mid-1970s by setting up the Financial Control Board and the Municipal Assistance Corporation, and persuading the city’s union pension funds and banks to buy the latter corporation’s bonds. 
    Note: These records were provided by the family of anthologist and transparency activist Russ Kick, from his papers, facilitated by the generous assistance of Dr. Susan Maret. This is not a complete collection set of his papers, but rather, a selection of items sent to The Black Vault for digital preservation.

    Yeager, Chuck – [66 Pages, 4.2MB] – Chuck Yeager (1923-2020) was an iconic American test pilot, Air Force officer, and record-setting aviator, best known for being the first person to break the sound barrier. Born in West Virginia, Yeager enlisted in the U.S. Army Air Forces during World War II, where he displayed remarkable flying prowess, becoming an ace fighter pilot. His legendary flight on October 14, 1947, aboard the Bell X-1 rocket plane, surpassed the speed of sound, marking a groundbreaking achievement in aviation history. Over his illustrious career, Yeager’s courageous feats and unmatched skills earned him numerous accolades and solidified his status as one of the most influential pilots of the 20th century.

    Youth International Party – FBI Release #1 –  [614 Pages, 32MB]
    Youth International Party – FBI Release #2 – [455 Pages, 221MB] – The Youth International Party (YIP), whose members were commonly called Yippies, was an American youth-oriented radical and countercultural revolutionary offshoot of the free speech and anti-war movements of the late 1960s. It was founded on December 31, 1967. They employed theatrical gestures to mock the social status quo, such as advancing a pig (“Pigasus the Immortal”) as a candidate for president of the United States in 1968.[3] They have been described as a highly theatrical, anti-authoritarian and anarchist youth movement of “symbolic politics”.

     Zapata Oil – [4 Pages, 0.8MB] – Zapata Petroleum Corporation was founded in 1953 by future-U.S. President George H. W. Bush, along with his business partners John Overbey, Hugh Liedtke, Bill Liedtke, and Thomas J. Devine. Overbey was a ‘landman’, skilled in scouting oil fields and obtaining drilling rights cheaply. Bush and Thomas J. Devine were oil-wildcatting associates. Their joint activities culminated in the establishment of Zapata Oil. The initial $1 million investment for Zapata was provided by the Liedtke brothers and their circle of investors, by Bush’s father Prescott Bush and his maternal grandfather George Herbert Walker, and their family’s circle of friends. Hugh Liedtke was named president, Bush was vice president; Overbey soon left.  Note: Records destroyed in April of 1995.

    Zworykin, Vladimir – FBI Release #1 – [1,153 Pages, 830MB]
    Zworykin, Vladimir – FBI Release #2 (Cross References) – [19 Pages, 830MB]Vladimir Kosmich Zworykin (July 29, 1888 – July 29, 1982) was a Russian-born American inventor, engineer, and pioneer of television technology. Educated in Russia and in France, he spent most of his life in the United States. Zworykin invented a television transmitting and receiving system employing cathode ray tubes. He played a role in the practical development of television from the early thirties, including charge storage-type tubes, infrared image tubes and the electron microscope.

     

    The post FBI Files: Historical Figures & Groups first appeared on The Black Vault.

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    → roboform

  • FBI Files: Journalists and their Periodicals

    FBI Files: Journalists and their Periodicals

    Background

    Welcome to the FBI Files on Journalists and their Periodicals archive on The Black Vault. This unique collection offers an intriguing glimpse into the interactions and investigations conducted by the FBI involving prominent journalists and their respective newspapers and periodicals. Here, you will find an array of declassified documents that shed light on the complex relationship between the media and government intelligence during various periods in history. These files not only offer insights into the careers and personal lives of the journalists but also reflect the broader socio-political context in which they operated.

    As you explore this archive, you will encounter files from a range of sources, detailing investigations, surveillance, and correspondences that paint a vivid picture of the journalistic landscape as viewed through the lens of the FBI. This collection is an invaluable resource for historians, researchers, and anyone interested in the intersection of media, politics, and intelligence. It provides a fascinating look at how journalists and their work were perceived and handled by government agencies, offering a deeper understanding of the dynamics between press freedom and national security.

    Document Archive

     Anderson, Jack – [1,518 Pages, 130 MB] – FBI’s “The Vault” Release
     Anderson, Jack – [1,131 Pages, 86.7 MB] – FBI Release #2 resulting from FOIA Request 1356764-000.
     Anderson, Jack – [1,323 Pages, 87.6 MB] – FBI Release #3  resulting from FOIA Request 1356764-001.This case was a bit confusing. The page count from the release on the FBI’s “Vault” differs by hundreds of pages against the file they sent me on CD-ROM.   Why the discrepancy? On 12/23/16, I filed a FOIA for additional records, to see where the confusion might be at and now I received  an estimate that there are an additional 1,598 pages that I can buy for $55.To add to the confusion, on December 1, 2017, I received another response CD-ROM with 1,323 pages on it. I was under the impression the case was closed since I did not pay for the 1,598 pages they quoted me for above.  So what was this release?Jack Northman Anderson (October 19, 1922 – December 17, 2005) was an American newspaper columnist, syndicated by United Features Syndicate, considered one of the fathers of modern investigative journalism. Anderson won the 1972 Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting for his investigation on secret American policy decision-making between the United States and Pakistan during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971. In addition to his newspaper career, Anderson also had a national radio show on the Mutual Broadcasting System, acted as Washington bureau chief of Parade magazine, and was a commentator on ABC-TV’s Good Morning America for nine years.

     Austin, Louis – FBI Release #1 – [96 Pages, 12.8MB] –
     Austin, Louis – FBI Release #2 – [17 Pages, 8.5MB] –  Louis Austin (1898-1971) was an African American journalist, leader and social activist. Austin purchased The Carolina Times in 1927 and transformed it into an institution that aided African Americans in their fight for freedom and equality in North Carolina. He used a new approach to Civil Rights issues in Durham, incorporating lower and middle class blacks, unlike the moderate, accommodationist approach of the black elite in Durham during this time. Austin’s unusual strategy of advocating for the majority of blacks to have a voice in society succeeded in galvanizing a broader segment of the African American community in Durham to act for social change. Austin’s approach to black activism helped lay the groundwork for the modern Civil Rights Movement in Durham in the late 1950s and 1960s, which also encouraged lower-income blacks to become politically active. His strategies—which were once considered too radical by his peers—allowed Austin to maintain his influence in Durham well into the 1950s and 1960s. In doing so, Austin created a lasting impact for Durham.

     Baldwin, Hanson – FBI Release #1 – [847 Pages, 65.7MB]
     Baldwin, Hanson – FBI Release #2 – [69 Pages, 51MB] – Hanson Weightman Baldwin (March 22, 1903 – November 13, 1991) was the long-time military editor of The New York Times. He won a Pulitzer Prize “for his coverage of the early days of World War II”. He wrote or edited numerous books on military topics.

     Barrett, Wayne – [5 Pages, 1.0MB] –  Wayne Barrett (July 11, 1945 – January 19, 2017) was an American journalist. He was an investigative reporter and senior editor for The Village Voice for 37 years. Barrett was a Fellow with The Nation Institute and contributor to Newsweek. He held degrees from Saint Joseph’s University and the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism, where he served on the adjunct faculty for over thirty years. Barrett authored many articles and books about politicians, especially New York City figures such as Ed Koch, Donald Trump, and Rudy Giuliani. He was a major interviewee in Kevin Keating’s 2006 documentary Giuliani Time.

     Brennan, Raymond Ruddy – [17 Pages, 5.4MB] – Raymond Ruddy “Ray” Brennan (1907-1972) was a prominent reporter for the Chicago Sun-Times, known for his fast-thinking and dynamic reporting style. He began his career in journalism with the Associated Press in Chicago, where he made a name for himself by obtaining an exclusive on the escape of gangster John Dillinger from the Crown Point jail. Brennan’s most notable work came during his time at the Sun-Times, where he was instrumental in covering high-profile criminal trials across the United States. His writing style and ability to immerse himself in the world of crime reporting made him a legend in the field. Brennan’s career also included ghostwriting Roger Touhy’s autobiography, “The Stolen Years,” which played a role in Touhy’s parole from prison. Known for his likable personality, despite living a life surrounded by gangsters and crime, Brennan passed away in 1972 due to cancer, a condition likely exacerbated by his constant smoking​​​​.

     Breslin, James – [57 Pages, 13MB] – James Earle Breslin (October 17, 1928 – March 19, 2017) was an American journalist and author. Until the time of his death, he wrote a column for the New York Daily News Sunday edition. He wrote numerous novels, and columns of his appeared regularly in various newspapers in his hometown of New York City. He served as a regular columnist for the Long Island newspaper Newsday until his retirement on November 2, 2004, though he still published occasional pieces for the paper. He was known for his newspaper columns which offered a sympathetic viewpoint of the working-class people of New York City, and was awarded the 1986 Pulitzer Prize for Commentary “for columns which consistently champion ordinary citizens”.

     Considine, Bob – [54 Pages, 33MB] –  Robert Bernard Considine, known as Bob Considine (November 4, 1906 – September 25, 1975), was an American journalist, author, and commentator. He is best known as the co-author of Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo and The Babe Ruth Story.  Additional records may exist – which have been requested. This page will be updated, should any new documents be released.

     Crile, George – FBI Release #1 – [18 Pages, 4.6MB]
     Crile, George – FBI Release #2 – [8 Pages, 1.8MB] (Cross References)
     Crile, George – NARA Release #1 – [14 Pages, 0.9MB]George Crile III (March 5, 1945 – May 15, 2006) was an American journalist most closely associated with his three decades of work at CBS News. Crile was both a producer and reporter for CBS. His career with the company spanned three decades until his death in 2006. Before joining CBS at the age of 31, Crile was Washington Editor of Harper’s Magazine. In addition to Harper’s, his articles were published in The Washington Monthly, New Times, The Washington Post Outlook Section and The New York Times.

     Cronkite, Walter – [72 Pages, 3.85 MB] –  Walter Leland Cronkite Walter Leland Cronkite (1916-2009), famous newscaster and journalist, worked for CBS News for five decades. Although the FBI did not investigate Cronkite, his name does appear in its files, usually in passing reference to his contact with an individual under FBI investigation or due to his professional contacts with the Bureau. These excerpts range from 1956 to 2000.

     Gold, Victor – [8 Pages, 4.5MB] – Victor “Vic” Gold (September 25, 1928 – June 5, 2017) was an American journalist, author, and Republican political consultant. Gold began his career as a lawyer and advisor to the Democratic Party in Alabama before switching to the Republican Party. He worked as deputy press secretary for Senator Barry Goldwater during the 1964 presidential election and press secretary for Vice President Spiro T. Agnew from 1970 to 1973. Gold left politics for a time to work as a writer and political commentator, returning in 1979 as a speechwriter to the presidential campaign of George H. W. Bush and was an advisor to Bush’s 1988 and 1992 campaigns. Later in life, Gold split with the Republicans over issues including the 2003 invasion of Iraq and formally left the party in 2016.

     Graham, Philip Leslie – [27 Pages, 15.4 MB] –  Philip Leslie “Phil” Graham (July 18, 1915 – August 3, 1963) was an American newspaper publisher. He was the publisher (from 1946 until his death) and co-owner (from 1948) of The Washington Post.

    He was married to Katharine Graham, the daughter of Eugene Meyer, the previous owner of The Washington Post.

     Griffith, Sanford – [HQ-1 File 21.08MB | NYC-1 File 35.14M ] – [ 520 Total Pages ] –  Sanford Griffith was born in 1893. He studied at Heidelberg University but on the outbreak of the First World War he fled to France and joined the French Army. In 1918 he transferred to the US Army. Griffith reached the rank of major and was involved in interrogating German prisoners. In 1940 Griffith was recruited by William Stephenson, the head of British Security Coordination (BSC). He now established his company Market Analysts Incorporated and was commissioned to carry out polls for the Committee to Defend America by Aiding the Allies. The organisation was headed by William Allen White who gave an interview to the Chicago Daily News about his intentions: “Here is a life and death struggle for every principle we cherish in America: For freedom of speech, of religion, of the ballot and of every freedom that upholds the dignity of the human spirit… Here all the rights that common man has fought for during a thousand years are menaced… The time has come when we must throw into the scales the entire moral and economic weight of the United States on the side of the free peoples of Western Europe who are fighting the battle for a civilized way of life.” It was not long before White’s organization had 300 chapters nationwide.

     Halle, Kay – [77 Pages, 50.7MB]
     Halle, Kay – [28 Pages, 13.5MB] – Kay Halle, born in 1903 in Cleveland, Ohio, was a notable American journalist, author, and broadcaster renowned for her multifaceted career and social influence. Her journalism career blossomed in the 1930s, where she worked as a radio commentator and columnist, gaining prominence for her incisive reporting and interviews with significant figures of the era. Halle was also a literary figure, authoring several books, including biographies and collections of humor. Beyond her professional achievements, she was a celebrated hostess in Washington, D.C., known for her salons that gathered politicians, journalists, and celebrities. Her social circle included Presidents, diplomats, and notable figures like Winston Churchill. Halle’s life reflected a blend of journalistic integrity, literary talent, and a unique knack for connecting influential personalities, making her a significant figure in mid-20th-century American media and society.

     Hastings, Michael – [21 Pages, 1.5 MB] – Michael M. Hastings (1980-2013), was a journalist and author. This release of a 6/11/2012 FBI document and its attachments (21 pages total) consists of the only material found in FBI records mentioning Hastings. No FBI records indicate an investigative interest in Hastings.The National Security Agency will neither confirm nor deny records related to Hastings — NSA Denial Letter

     Hillman Periodicals – [77 Pages, 50.7MB] –  Hillman Periodicals, Inc. was an American magazine and comic book publishing company founded in 1938 by Alex L. Hillman, a former New York City book publisher. It is best known for its true confession and true crime magazines; for the long-running general-interest magazine Pageant; and for comic books including Air Fighters Comics and its successor Airboy Comics, which launched the popular characters Airboy and The Heap.

     Inside Story Magazine – [ 23 Pages, 55 MB ] –  Take a look back in time when the public would assist the FBI with news tips and leads. Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, there was a periodical known as “Inside Story”. In it, were news articles, some of which, concerning the FBI. This file (obtained from the National Archives), offers the articles and corresponding letters the FBI received, clipped from this magazine.

     Jennings, Peter – [61 Pages, 28.4MB] –  Peter Charles Archibald Ewart Jennings, CM (July 29, 1938 – August 7, 2005) was a Canadian-American journalist and news anchor. He was the sole anchor of ABC World News Tonight from 1983 until his death in 2005 of complications from lung cancer. A high-school dropout, he transformed himself into one of American television’s most prominent journalists.

     Kaplow, Herbert – [17 Pages, 2.91 MB] –  Herbert Elias “Herb” Kaplow (February 2, 1927 – July 27, 2013) was an American television news correspondent. His main focus was reporting out of Washington, D.C., covering presidential campaigns and those who were elected.

     Krassner, Paul – FBI Release #1 – [362 Pages, 161MB]
     Krassner, Paul – FBI Release #2 – [193 Pages, 129MB] – Paul Krassner (1932-2019) was an influential American satirist, journalist, and activist, best known as the founder and editor of The Realist, a groundbreaking satirical magazine that played a pivotal role in the countercultural movements of the 1960s. Blending humor with pointed social critique, Krassner tackled controversial topics, challenging political norms and censorship. He was also a key figure in the Yippie movement and co-founded the Youth International Party, using satire and activism to oppose war and support civil liberties. His irreverent writing style and fearless approach to taboo subjects solidified his legacy as a provocateur who shaped alternative journalism.

     Morley, Felix – [5 Pages, 1.5MB] – Felix Muskett Morley (1894-1982) was a distinguished American journalist, editor, and educator known for his contributions to political commentary and journalism. He served as the editor of the Washington Post from 1933 to 1940, during which the newspaper earned its first Pulitzer Prize for Public Service in 1936. A staunch advocate for individual liberties and limited government, Morley was also a prominent voice in the American conservative movement. He authored several influential books and essays, often emphasizing the importance of federalism and constitutionalism. In addition to his editorial work, Morley was an accomplished academic, teaching at Haverford College and later becoming the president of the institution. His legacy continues to be honored for his commitment to journalistic integrity and principled political thought.

     Pearl, Daniel – [21 Pages, 8.2MB] –  Daniel Pearl (October 10, 1963 – February 1, 2002) was a journalist for the Wall Street Journal with American and Israeli citizenship. He was kidnapped by Pakistani terrorists and later murdered in Pakistan.  Pearl was kidnapped while working as the South Asia Bureau Chief of The Wall Street Journal, based in Mumbai, India. He had gone to Pakistan as part of an investigation into the alleged links between British citizen Richard Reid (known as the “shoe bomber”) and Al-Qaeda. Pearl was killed by his captors.  In July 2002, Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, a British national of Pakistani origin, was sentenced to death by hanging for Pearl’s abduction and murder.  In March 2007, at a closed military hearing in Guantánamo Bay, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a member of Al-Qaeda, claimed that he had personally beheaded Pearl.  Researchers have also connected Al-Qaeda member Saif al-Adel with the kidnapping.

     Reston, James B. “Scotty” – FBI Release #1 – [25 Pages, 17.7 MB]
     Reston, James B. “Scotty” – FBI Release #2 – [79 Pages, 45.8 MB]
     Reston, James B. “Scotty” – FBI Release #3 – [29 Pages, 16.7 MB]
     Reston, James B. “Scotty” – FBI Release #4 – [26 Pages, 18.5 MB] – James Reston, born in Clydebank, Scotland, on November 3, 1909, was a prominent American journalist and editor. Known for his extensive career at The New York Times, Reston served as both a correspondent and a columnist, eventually becoming the paper’s executive editor. He was a key figure in political journalism, covering significant events such as World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. Reston was awarded two Pulitzer Prizes for his insightful reporting and influential commentary. His work earned him a reputation as a trusted voice in American journalism until his retirement in 1989. Reston passed away on December 6, 1995, leaving behind a legacy of journalistic excellence.

     Safer, Morley – [14 Pages, 7.9 MB] –  Morley Safer (November 8, 1931 – May 19, 2016) was a Canadian-American broadcast journalist, reporter, and correspondent for CBS News. He was best known for his long tenure on the news magazine 60 Minutes, whose cast he joined in 1970 after its second year on television. He was the longest-serving reporter on 60 Minutes, the most watched and most profitable program in television history.

     Sokolsky, George – [50 Pages, 3.62 MB] –  George Ephraim Sokolsky (1893–1962) was a weekly radio broadcaster for the National Association of Manufacturers and a columnist for The New York Herald Tribune, who later switched to The New York Sun and other Hearst newspapers.

     Smith, Robert – [89 Pages, 17.2MB] – Robert Ellis Smith (September 6, 1940 – July 25, 2018) was an American attorney, author, and a publisher/journalist whose focus is mainly privacy rights.

     Snell, David – [5 Pages, 1MB] –  David Snell (March 28, 1921 – July 1987) was a reporter and cartoonist for Life Magazine, a major 20th-century magazine, and several other publications during his career as a journalist.

     Strong, Anna – FBI Release #1 – [37 Pages, 2.8MB]
     Strong, Anna – FBI Release #2 – [104 Pages, 9.65MB] – Anna Louise Strong (November 24, 1885 – March 29, 1970) was an American journalist and activist, best known for her reporting on and support for communist movements in the Soviet Union and the People’s Republic of China. She wrote over 30 books and varied articles.

     Thomas, Helen – [7 Pages, 0.5 MB] –  Helen Amelia Thomas (August 4, 1920 – July 20, 2013) was an American author and news service reporter, member of the White House press corps and opinion columnist. She worked for the United Press and post-1958 successor United Press International (UPI) for 57 years, first as a correspondent, and later as White House bureau manager. She was a columnist for Hearst Newspapers from 2000 to 2010, writing on national affairs and the White House. She covered the administrations of eleven U.S. presidents—from the final years of the Eisenhower administration to the second year of the Obama administration.

     Voice of America – [827 Pages, 47.5MB] –  The Voice of America, which first went on the air in 1942, is an international multimedia broadcasting service funded by the U.S. government through the Broadcasting Board of Governors. VOA broadcasts approximately 1,500 hours of news, information, educational, and cultural programming every week to an estimated worldwide audience of 125 million people.

    There are an additional, approximately,  8,750 pages of material on Voice of America. To obtain this material, it would be $265.  If anyone is interested in sponsoring this file, let me know, and I will obtain it and put it all online.

      Wallace, Myron Leon “Mike” – [50 Pages, 3.62 MB] –  Myron Leon “Mike” Wallace (1918-2012) was a well-known American journalist. This release consists of two parts. The first concerns a foreign counterintelligence file opened about Wallace’s 1970 trip to Cuba (pp.1-5) and the second an investigation into a threatening letter sent to Wallace (pp.6-50).

     Walters, Barbara – [12 Pages, 3.5MB] –  Barbara Jill Walters, born on September 25, 1929, and passing away on December 30, 2022, was a renowned American broadcast journalist and television personality. Her career in journalism spanned from 1951 until her retirement in 2015. Walters became a household name due to her exceptional interviewing skills and her popularity with television viewers. She hosted numerous significant television programs, including “Today,” “ABC Evening News,” “20/20,” and “The View.” Her contributions to the field of journalism were widely recognized, earning her induction into the Television Hall of Fame in 1989, a Lifetime Achievement Award from the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences (NATAS) in 2000, and a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame in 2007​​.

      Whitehead, Don – [118 Pages, 13.40MB] –  Don Whitehead (April 8, 1908 in Inman, Virginia – January 12, 1981) was an American journalist. He was awarded the Medal of Freedom. He won the 1950 George Polk Award for wire service reporting.

    Mr. Whitehead wrote The FBI Story A Report to the People, in which the FBI admits there are 3,843 pages, and it would be $115 to retrieve this file on CD. If you are interested in sponsoring this file, write to contact@theblackvault.com

     

    The post FBI Files: Journalists and their Periodicals first appeared on The Black Vault.

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  • Transcript: Senate Hearing On UFOs: Gillibrand – “We Don’t Know Where They Come From, Who Made Them, Or How They Operate.”

    Transcript: Senate Hearing On UFOs: Gillibrand – “We Don’t Know Where They Come From, Who Made Them, Or How They Operate.”

    “In the event sufficient scientific data were ever obtained, that a UAP encounter can only be explained by extraterrestrial origin, we are committed to working with our interagency partners at NASA to appropriately inform U.S. Government’s leadership of its findings.”

    ~Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick – Director of AARO

    ~~~

    If you like what you see on my blog, my Twitter and YouTube Channel and appreciate the time and effort, here are links to my PatreonPay Pal and Venmo. I appreciate any and all support. Without that support, I would struggle to do this as much as I do.

    ~~~

    Patreon = https://www.patreon.com/ufojoe

    Pay Palufojoe11@aol.com

    Venmo – www.venmo.com/u/ufojoe

    ~~~

    Full hearing…

    ~~~

    Former intelligence and defense contractor, Michael Via, joined me on April 23rd and we analyzed the hearing.

    ~~~

    Senator Kirsten Gillibrand – D-New York – (KG): “The hearing will come to order. I’d first like to thank our witness, Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick, for testifying here and in today’s earlier closed session. And for his long and distinguished career, both in the intelligence community and in the Department of Defense. Dr. Kirkpatrick is the director of the All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office, or AARO. Congress established this office, in law, to get to the bottom of the very serious problem of Unidentified Anomalous Phenomenon (That’s not a typo. KG said “phenomenon.” ~Joe) or UAP. Dr. Kirkpatrick has a very difficult mission. While we have made progress, there remains a stigma attached to these phenomenon. There is a vast and complex citizen engagement, and there’s also very challenging scientific and technical hurdles. So we appreciate the willingness of Dr. Kirkpatrick to lean in on this issue and the work that he has accomplished thus far. And we look forward to both his opening statement and his presentation of examples of the work AARO has done.

    In late 2017, media reports surfaced about activity set in motion by the late long-serving Majority Leader, Senator Harry Reid, more than a decade ago. We learned that there was strong evidence of advanced technology reflected in the features and performance characteristics of many objects observed by our highly-trained service members operating top-of-the-line, military equipment. We learned that for at least the past eight years, military pilots frequently encountered unknown objects in controlled airspace off both the East and West Coasts across the continental United States, in test and training areas, and ranges. We don’t know where they come from, who made them, or how they operate. As former Deputy Secretary of Defense, David Norquist, observed, had any of these objects had the label, Made in China, there would be an uproar in the government and media. There would be no stone unturned and no effort spared to find out what we were dealing with. We can look at the recent incursion of the unidentified, PRC (People’s Republic of China) high-altitude balloon as an example. And because of the UFO stigma, the response has been irresponsibly anemic and slow.

    Congress established AARO. We made it clear that we expect vigorous action. We added very substantial, initial funding for the office. But despite our best efforts, the President’s budget for Fiscal Years 2023 and 2024, requested only enough funding to defray the operating expenses of AARO. It included almost no funds to sustain the critical research and development necessary to support a serious investigation. It took a letter to Secretary Austin from Senator Rubio and me, and 14 other senators, to get the office temporary relief for the current fiscal year.

    ~~~

    https://twitter.com/tinyklaus/status/1626361031667724288

    ~~~

    [the_ad]

    KG: In this hearing, I tend to probe a series of specific issues. In the recent incidents where multiple objects were shot down over North America, it seemed that Pentagon leadership did not turn to [the] AARO office to play a leading role in advising the combatant commander. We need to know whether this will continue, we need to know whether the leadership in DoD will bring AARO into the decision-making process in a visible way, and we need to know what role AARO will play in interagency coordination after the NSC Working Group disbands.

    In the fiscal year 2023 National Defense and Intelligence Authorization Act, Congress established a direct-reporting chain from the AARO director to the Deputy Secretary of Defense. The role of the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence and Security is limited to providing administrative support. We need to know how this direction is being implemented. UAP are frequently observed flying [at] extremely high or very-low speeds and come in various sizes and shapes. During the recent shoot downs over North America, DoD disclosed that filters on radar systems were adjusted to allow for detection and tracking of diverse sets of objects for the first time. While opening the aperture can overload the real time, analytic process, we cannot keep turning a blind eye to surveillance data that is critical to detecting and tracking UAP. We need to know whether Dr. Kirkpatrick can achieve the necessary control over sensor filters, and the storage and access to raw, surveillance data to find UAP anomalies.

    Finally, one of the tasks Congress set for AARO is serving as an open door for witnesses of UAP events, or participants in government activities related to UAPs, to come forward securely and disclose what they know without fear of retribution for any possible violations of previously signed non-disclosure-agreements. Congress mandated that AARO set up a publicly-discoverable and accessible process for safe disclosure. While we know that AARO has already conducted a significant number of interviews, many referred by Congress, we need to set up a public process and we need to know where that effort stands. With that, I’d like to turn to Senator Ernst for her opening statement.

    ~~~

    Senator Joni Ernst – R-Iowa – (JE): Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you Dr. Kirkpatrick for your testimony today. I’ll keep these remarks very brief so that we have maximum time for your briefing. The recent downing of the Chinese surveillance balloon, and three other objects, underscores the need for domain awareness. Adversaries like China and Russia are working to hold U.S. interests, including our homeland, at risk. That’s why your testimony is so important. And I so look forward to a progress update on the establishment of your office. As members know, your office evolved from the Navy-led, Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force, to the All-domain Anomalous Resolution Office known as AARO. Dr. Kirkpatrick, your extensive background in science and technology, research and development, and space, makes you well suited to discuss these emerging challenges. My priority is that we understand the full range of threats posed by our adversaries in all domains. That is what the Joint Force needs to be prepared to fight and win in defense of our nation. This committee needs to know about Chinese or Russian advanced-technology programs to exploit our vulnerabilities, and it needs to know whether your office, along with the IC, has detected potential Chinese or Russian capabilities to surveil or attack us. Finally, we need to ensure efficient, interagency coordination. Multiple elements of the DoD and IC own a piece of this mission. To add value, AARO’s efforts cannot be redundant with others. Thank you again, we look forward to your testimony.

    KG: Dr. Kirkpatrick, you can give your testimony.

    Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick (SK): Thank you, Chairwoman Gillibrand, Ranking Member Ernst, and distinguished members of the Subcommittee and Congress. It is a privilege to be here today to testify on the Department of Defense’s efforts to address Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena.

    First, I want to thank Congress for its extensive and continued partnership as the Department works to better understand and respond to UAP in an effort to minimize technical and intelligence surprise. Unidentified objects in any domain pose potential risks to safety and security, particularly for military personnel and capabilities. Congress and DoD agree that UAP cannot remain unexamined or unaddressed.

    We are grateful for sustained, congressional engagement on this issue, which paved the way for DoD’s establishment of the All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office in July of last year. Though AARO is still a young office, the spotlight on UAP in recent months underscores the importance of its work and the need for UAP to be taken seriously as a matter of national security. All leadership that I’ve had the pleasure of working with, whether DoD, IC, DOE, civil, scientific or industrial, view Congress as a critical partner in this endeavor.

    AARO has accomplished much in the 9 months since it was established. The AARO team of more than three dozen experts is organized around four functional areas: operations, scientific research, integrated analysis, and strategic communications. In the nine months since AARO’s establishment, we have taken important steps to improve UAP data collection, standardize the Department’s UAP internal reporting requirements, and implement a framework for rigorous scientific and intelligence analysis, allowing us to resolve cases in a systematic and prioritized manner. Meanwhile, consistent with legislative direction, AARO is also carefully reviewing and researching the U.S. Government’s UAP-related historical record.

    AARO is leading a focused effort to better characterize, understand, and attribute UAP, with priority given to UAP reports by DoD and IC personnel in or near areas of national security importance. DoD fully appreciates the eagerness from many quarters, especially here in Congress and in the American public, to quickly resolve every UAP encountered across the globe, from the distant past through today.

    It is important to note, however, that AARO is the culmination of decades of DoD, Intelligence Community, and congressionally-directed efforts to successfully resolve UAP encountered, first and foremost, by U.S. military personnel, specifically Navy and Air Force pilots.

    The law establishing AARO is ambitious, and it will take time to realize the full mission. We cannot answer decades of questions about UAP all at once, but we must begin somewhere. While I assure you that AARO will follow scientific evidence wherever it leads, I ask for your patience as DoD first prioritizes the safety and security of our military personnel and installations, in all domains.

    After all, UAP encountered first by highly-capable DoD and IC platforms, featuring the nation’s most advanced sensors, are those UAP most likely to be successfully resolved by my office, assuming the data can be collected. If AARO succeeds in first improving the ability of military personnel to quickly and confidently resolve UAP they encounter, I believe that in time, we will have greatly advanced the capability of the entire United States Government, including its civilian agencies, to resolve UAP. However, it would be naive to believe that the resolution of all UAP can be solely accomplished by the DoD and IC alone. We will need to prioritize collection and leverage authorities for monitoring all domains within the continental United States. AARO’s ultimate success will require partnerships with the interagency, industry partners, academia and the scientific community, as well as the public.

    AARO is partnering with the Services, Intelligence Community, DOE and across the U.S. government to tap into the resources of the interagency. The UAP challenge is more an operational and scientific issue than it is an intelligence issue. As such, we are working with industry, academia, and the scientific community, which bring their own resources, ideas, and expertise to this challenging problem set. Robust collaboration and peer-review across a broad range of partners will promote greater objectivity and transparency in the study of UAP.

    I want to underscore today that only a very small percentage of UAP reports display signatures that could reasonably be described as ‘anomalous.’ The majority of unidentified objects reported to AARO demonstrate mundane characteristics of balloons, unmanned aerial systems, clutter, natural phenomena, or other readily explainable sources. While a large number of cases in our holdings remain technically unresolved, this is primarily due to a lack of data associated with these cases. Without sufficient data, we are unable to reach defendable conclusions that meet the high scientific standards we set for resolution, and I will not close a case that we cannot defend the conclusions of.

    I recognize that this answer is unsatisfying to those who, in good faith, assume that what they see with their eyes, with their cameras, and with their radars is incontrovertible evidence of extraordinary characteristics and performance. Yet, time and again, with sufficient scientific-quality data, it is fact that UAP often, but not always, resolve into readily-explainable sources. Humans are subject to deception and illusions, sensors to unexpected responses and malfunctions, and in some cases, intentional interference. Getting to the handful of cases that pass this level of scrutiny is the mission of AARO.

    That is not to say that UAP, once resolved, are no longer of national security interest, however. On the contrary, learning that a UAP isn’t of exotic origin but is instead, just a quadcopter or a balloon, leads to the question of who is operating that quadcopter, and to what purpose. The answers to those questions will inform potential national security or law-enforcement responses.

    AARO is a member of the Department’s support to the administration’s “Tiger Team” effort to deal with stratospheric objects such as the PRC High-Altitude Balloon (HAB). When previously unknown objects are successfully identified, it is AARO’s role to quickly and efficiently hand off such readily-explainable objects to the Intelligence, law-enforcement or operational-safety communities for further analysis and appropriate action. In other words, AARO’s mission is to turn UAP into SEP: Somebody Else’s Problem.

    The U.S. Government, the DoD and the IC, in particular, has tremendous capabilities to deal with those encountered objects. In the wake of the PRC HAB event, the interagency is working to better integrate and share information to address identifiable stratospheric objects, but that is not AARO’s lane.

    Meanwhile, for the few cases in all domains, space, air and sea, that do demonstrate potentially anomalous characteristics, AARO exists to help the DoD, IC, and interagency resolve those anomalous cases. In doing so, AARO is approaching these cases with the highest level of objectivity and analytic rigor. This includes physically testing and employing modeling and simulation to validate our analyses and underlying theories, then peer reviewing those results within the U.S. Government, industry partners, and appropriately-cleared academic institutions, before reaching any conclusions.

    I should also state clearly, for the record, that in our research, AARO has found no credible evidence, thus far, of extraterrestrial activity, off-world technology, or objects that defy the known laws of physics. In the event sufficient scientific data were ever obtained, that a UAP encounter can only be explained by extraterrestrial origin, we are committed to working with our interagency partners at NASA to appropriately inform U.S. Government’s leadership of its findings. For those few cases that have leaked to the public previously, and subsequently commented on by the U.S. Government, I encourage those who hold alternative theories or views to submit your research to credible, peer-reviewed scientific journals. AARO is working very hard to do the same. That is how science works, not by blog or social media.

    We know that there is tremendous public interest in UAP and a desire for answers from AARO. By its very nature, the UAP challenge has, for decades, lent itself to mystery, sensationalism, and even conspiracy. For that reason, AARO remains committed to transparency, accountability, and to sharing as much with the American public as we can, consistent with our obligation to protect not only intelligence sources and methods, but U.S. and Allied capabilities. However, AARO’s work will take time if we are committed to doing it right. It means adhering to the scientific method and the highest standards of research integrity. It means being methodical and scrupulous. It means withholding judgment in favor of evidence. It means following the data where it leads, wherever it leads. It means establishing scientific, peer-reviewed, theoretical underpinnings of observed data. And AARO is committed to all of those standards.

    I’m proud of AARO’s progress over the last nine months. Much remains to be done, but the hard work is under way. Thank you for your continued support. And before we turn to questions, I’m gonna walk you through some of our analytical trends and a couple of cases that we’ve prepared.

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    So one of the things that AARO does is high-integrity analysis, as I’ve said. This chart represents the trend analysis of all the cases in AARO’s holdings to date.

    I’ll break it down since it’s small and hard to see:

    UAP Reporting Trends – 1996-2023

    Reported-UAP Altitudes

    60,000 feet – 0.6%

    55,000 feet – 0.0%

    50,000 feet – 0.3%

    45,000 feet – 0.3%

    40,000 feet – 0.6%

    35,000 feet – 2.5%

    30,000 feet – 6.4%

    25,000 feet – 23.5%

    20,000 feet – 32.2%

    15,000 feet – 16.5%

    10,000 feet – 7.8%

    5,000 feet – 9.2%

    ~~~

    Typically-Reported UAP Characteristics

    Appearance 

    Morphology – Round, Atypical Orientation

    Size – 1-4 meters

    Color – White, Silver, Translucent

    Performance

    Altitude – 10,000-30,000 feet

    Velocity – Stationary to Mach 2

    Signatures

    Propulsion – No thermal exhaust detected

    Radar –  Intermittent, X-Band (8-12 GHz)

    Radio – 1-3 GHz, 8-12 Ghz

    Thermal – Intermittent, Shortwave Infrared, Medium-Wave Infrared

    ~~~

    Reported UAP Morphology

    Vector – 0%

    Tic Tac – 1%

    Polygon – 1%

    Square 1%

    Rectangle 1%

    Triangle – 2%

    Disk – 2%

    Cylinder – 2%

    Oval – 3%

    Lights – 5%

    Other – 6%

    Ambiguous Sensor Contact – 23%

    Orb. Round. Sphere – 52%

    ~~~

    SK: What you’ll see on the left is a histogram of all of our reported sightings as a function of altitude. So, most of our sightings occur in the 15 to 25,000 foot range. And that is ultimately because that’s where a lot of our aircraft are.

    ~~~

    SK: On the far right, upper corner, you’ll see a breakout of the morphologies of all of the UAP that are reported. Over half, about 52% of what’s been reported to us, are round or spheres. The rest of those breakout into all kinds of different other shapes. The gray box (Ambiguous Sensor Contact) is…essentially there is no data on what its shape is. Either it wasn’t reported or the sensor did not collect it.

    ~~~

    SK: The bottom map is a heat map of all reporting areas across the globe that we have available to us. What you’ll notice is that there is a heavy, what we call, collection bias, both in altitude and in geographic location. That’s where all of our sensors exist. That’s where our training ranges are, that’s where our operational ranges are, that’s where all of our platforms are.

    ~~~

    SK: In the middle, what we have done is reduce the most typically-reported UAP characteristics to these fields. Mostly round, mostly one to four meters. White, silver, translucent, metallic. 10,000 to 30,000 feet, with apparent velocities from stationary to Mach 2. No thermal exhausts are usually detected. We get intermittent radar returns, we get intermittent radio returns, and we get intermittent thermal signatures. That’s what we’re looking for, and trying to understand what that is.

    ~~~

    SK: Next slide. So I’m going to walk you through two cases that we’ve declassified recently. This first one is an MQ-9 in the Middle East, observing that blow up, which is an apparent spherical object via EO (electro-optical) sensors. Those are not IR (Infrared).

    ~~~

    SK: If you want to go ahead and click that and play it.

    2022 – MQ-9: Sphere/Orb – No Audio

     

    ~~~

    2022 – MQ-9: Sphere/Orb – With Kirkpatrick Audio

    ~~~

    SK: You’ll see it come through the top of the screen, there it goes, and then the camera will slew to follow it. You’ll see it pop in and out of the field of view there. This is essentially all of the data we have associated with this event from some years ago. It is going to be virtually impossible to fully identify that, just based off of that video. Now what we can do and what we are doing is keeping that as part of that group of 52% to see: What are the similarities, what are the trends across all these, and do we see these in a particular distribution? Do they all behave the same or not? As we get more data, we will be able to go back and look at these in a fuller context. How are we gonna get more data? We are working with the Joint Staff to issue guidance to all the services and commands, that will then establish: What are the reporting requirements, the timeliness, and all of the data that is required to be delivered to us and retained from all the associated sensors? That historically hasn’t been the case, and it’s been happenstance that data has been collected.

    Next slide. This particular event, South Asia, MQ-9, looking at another MQ-9. And what’s highlighted there in that red circle is an object that flies through the screen.

    ~~~

    SK: Unlike the previous one, this one actually shows some really interesting things that everyone thought was truly anomalous to start with. First of all, it’s a high-speed object that’s flying in the field of regard of two MQ-9s. Second, it appears to have this trail behind it, right? Which, at first blush, you would think, that looks like a propulsion trail. In reality, if you want to play the first slide, we’ll show you what that looks like in real time. The first video.

    2023 – MQ-9: Commuter Jet – No Audio

    ~~~

    2023 – MQ-9: Commuter Jet – With Kirkpatrick Audio

    ~~~

    SK: So we’re looking at that, there it goes. Why don’t you play it again, and then pause it halfway through. Right there. Alright, if you might be able to see that trail there behind it. That’s actually not a real trail, that is a sensor artifact. Each one of those little blobs is actually a representation of the object as it’s moving through. And later in the video, as the as the camera slews, that trail actually follows the direction of the camera, not the direction of the object.

    2023 – MQ-9: The Trail = A Sensor Artifact

    ~~~

    2023 – MQ-9: Close-up of The Trail = A Sensor Artifact 

    ~~~

    2023 – MQ-9: Close-up of Commuter Jet

    ~~~

    SK: We pulled these apart frame by frame, we were able to demonstrate that that is essentially a readout, overlap of the image. It’s a shadow image, right? It’s not real. Further, if you later follow this all the way to end, it starts to resolve itself into that blob that’s in that picture on the top right. And if you squint, it looks like an aircraft…because it actually turns out to be an aircraft. Go ahead and put that on. So you’ll see the tail sort of pop out there. And so what you’re looking at, in the infrared, this is the heat signature off of the engines of a commuter aircraft that happened to be flying in the vicinity of where those two MQ-9s were at.

    Why am I showing you this? So the first one that I showed you, we don’t have resolved yet, right? That is an unresolved case we are still studying. This one, we can resolve. But this is the kind of data that we have to work with and the type of analysis that we have to do, which can be quite extensive when you have to pull these apart, frame by frame. Further, we’re now matching all of this with the models of all of those imaging sensors, so that I can say, “I can recreate this, I can actually show how the sensor is going to respond.” All of these sensors don’t necessarily respond the way ya think they do. Especially out in the world and in the field. And I believe that’s all I have. And I will open it up for your questions.

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    KG: Thank you so much, Dr. Kirkpatrick. Can you just give us some raw numbers of how many UAPs you’ve analyzed? How many have been resolved, and sort of in what buckets? And then how many are still left to be resolved? Just an update from your January public report, where it was 366 or something, and about 150 were balloons, and about two dozen were drones. You know, just give us an update, if you have one.

    SK: Sure. So, as of this week, we are tracking over a total of 650 cases. Now, the report in January basically said about half of the ones at that time, about 150, were likely balloon-like or something like that. That doesn’t mean they’re resolved.

    KG: Oh, I see.

    SK: Let me walk everyone through what our analytic process looks like. We have, essentially, a five-step process, right? So we have, we get our cases, and all the data. We create a case for that event. My team does a preliminary scrub of all of those cases as they come in, just to sort out: Do we have any information that says this is in one of those likely categories? It’s likely a balloon, it’s likely a bird, it’s likely some other object. Or, we don’t know. Then we prioritize those based off of where they are. Are they attached to a national-security area? Does it show some anomalous phenomenology that is of interest? If it’s just a spherical thing that’s floating around with the wind, and it has no payload on it, that’s gonna be less important than something that has a payload on it, which will be less important than something that’s maneuvering, right?

    So there’s sort of a hierarchy of just binning the priorities, because we can’t do all of them at once. Once we do that, and we prioritize them, and we take that package of data, in that case…and I have set up two teams. Think of this as a Red Team/Blue Team, or a competitive analysis. I have an intelligence-community team, made up of intelligence analysts, and I have an S & T team (science and technology) made up of scientists and engineers. And the people that actually build a lot of these sensors are physicists, because, you know, if you’re a physicist, you can do anything, right? And…but they’re not associated with the Intel Community, they’re not intel officers. They look at this through the lens of the sensor, of what the data says. We give that package to both teams. And the Intelligence Community is gonna look at it through the lens of the intelligence record, and what they assess, and their intel tradecraft, which they have very specific rules and regulations on how they do. The scientific community, technical community, is gonna look at it through the lens of: What is the data telling me? What is the sensor doing? What would I expect a sensor response to be? And back that out. Those two groups give us their answers.

    We then adjudicate. If they agree, then I am more likely to close that case, if they agree on what it is. If they disagree, we will have an adjudication. We’ll bring them together, we’ll take a look at the differences. We’ll adjudicate: Why do you say one thing and you say another? We will then come to a case recommendation [and] that will get written up by my team. That then goes to a Senior Technical Advisory Group, which is outside of all of those people, made up of senior, technical folks and intel analysts and operators from retired, out of the Community. And they essentially peer review what that case recommendation is. They write their recommendations and that comes back to me, I review it, we make a determination, and I’ll sign off one way or the other. And then that will go out as the case determination. Once we have an approved web portal to hang the unclassified stuff, we will downgrade and declassify things and put it out there. In the meantime, we’re putting a lot of these on our classified web portal, where we can then collaborate with the rest of the Community so they can see what’s going on.

    In a nutshell, that is the process, right? So, because of that…that takes time. So of those, over 650, you know, we’ve prioritized about half of them to be of anomalous, interesting value. And now we have to go through those and go, “How much do I have actual data for?” Because if all I have is [an] operator report that says, “I saw X, Y or Z, and my assessment is A, B, or C,” that’s not really sufficient. That’s a good place to start, but I have to have data. I have to have radar data, I have to have EO (electro-optical) data, I have to have thermal data, I have to have overhead data, and we need to look at all that.

    Now, from a big-picture perspective, I still have…that’s all still very valuable data, and we’re looking at applying a lot of things, new tools, analytic tools, like natural-language processing, so I can go across all of those reports and look for commonalities. How many of them are being described as round, spherical objects that are maneuvering. How many of them are not maneuvering? How many of them seem to have a plume to it, or node? That’s also going to be very valuable to give us more of a global picture and a trends analysis of: What are we seeing? And help us get to the determination.

    So, go back to your question, ma’am, we have…this next quarterly report will be coming out here pretty soon. Our next annual report, you all have given us…moved it up to June/July. We’re gonna be having that done about that timeframe and we’ll be combining a whole number of reports into that one. I think we’re currently sitting at around – if I remember correctly – we’re around twenty to thirtyish, or about halfway through that analytic process. A handful of them have made it all the way out to the other side, gone through peer review, we’ve got case-closure reports done and signed. We’re gonna get faster as we get more people on board and we get more of the Community tools to automate some of the analysis that has to be done.

    Senator Joni ErnstR-Iowa (JE): Thank you, Madam Chair. And Dr. Kirkpatrick, the ODNI annual Threat Assessment states that China’s space activities are designed to erode U.S. influence across military, technological, economic and diplomatic spheres. Likewise, Russia will remain a key space competitor. In the course of your work, have you become aware of any Chinese or Russia[n] technical advancements to surveil or attack U.S. interests?

    SK: So that’s a great question. Part of what we have to do as we go through these – especially the ones that show signatures of advanced, technical capabilities – is determine if there’s a foreign nexus. That’s really hard if what we observe doesn’t have a Chinese or Russian flag on the side of it. Now, I think it is prudent to say, of the cases that are showing some sort of advanced technical signature – of which, we’re talking single percentages of the entire population of cases we have – I am concerned about what that nexus is. And I have indicators that some are related to foreign capabilities. We have to investigate that with our IC partners, and as we get evidence to support that, that gets then handed off to the appropriate IC agency to investigate. Again, it becomes an SEP at that point.

    JE: Yeah, Somebody Else’s Problem.

    SK: Right.

    JE: Very good. Thank you. Yes. Is it (laughs) possible that the Chinese or Russian advanced technologies could be causing some of these anomalous behaviors? And you said, there’s seems to be some indicators. So, just for us today, could you describe potential threat[s] that might exist out there if they are foreign nexus?

    SK: Sure. In order to do this research appropriately, we have to also be cognizant of what is the state of the art in development across the S&T community. What are the DARPAs of the world doing? What’s the horizon scanning of emerging technologies – appropriate to this subcommittee – what is happening out there? And if somebody could accelerate that capability, how would that manifest itself and what would it look like? And do those signatures match what we’re seeing? There are emerging capabilities out there that, in many instances, Russia and China, well, China in particular, are on par or ahead of us in some areas. So previously, I used to be the Defense Department’s intelligence officer for science and technical intelligence. That was our job, was to look for…what does all that look like? And then, you know, my last several years, of course, in Space Command, doing space. The adversary is not waiting. They are advancing and they’re advancing quickly. If I were to put on some of my old hats, I would tell you, they are less risk averse at technical advancement than we are, right? They are just willing to try things and see if it works. Are there capabilities that could be employed against us in both an ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance), in a weapons fashion? Absolutely. Do I have evidence that they’re doing it in these cases? No, but I have concerning indicators.

    JE: Thank you. I appreciate that. And that is why it’s so important that you are working with the Intelligence Community as well. Because you have the science, the data background, but you also need to know, from various sources, what adversaries may be working on. Correct. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Madam Chair.

    [the_ad_placement]

    KG: Senator Rosen?

    Senator Jackie RosenD-Nevada (JR): Well, thank you, Chair Gillibrand, Ranking Member Ernst, this is a really important hearing. I’d like to thank you, Dr. Kirkpatrick, for your service to the country. And as a former systems analyst myself, I really appreciate your flowchart, the description of the process, and particularly the trends analysis going forward, how that’s gonna help us. And you talked about language, the LLMs, the large-language models of artificial intelligence. That’s really gonna help us in the hunt forward, predictive analysis, I think, to some of your point of what we’d be worried about.

    But I want to focus on Nevada because I want to talk about the impact of UAPs on aviation safety. So when it comes to Unidentified Aerial Phenomenal…phenomena, excuse me, one of my first concerns is really about the safety of Nevada’s military aviator. So we have airmen stationed at Nellis Air Force Base, naval aviators flying at Naval Air Station Fallon, and service members from across the world, training at the Nevada test and training range. I know you know all this. And unfortunately, the existence of advanced UAPs in the U.S. airspace and over U.S. military installations [is] not a new phenomenon. The Navy’s officially acknowledged that between 2004 and 2021, eleven near misses occurred involving UAPs that required pilot action and follow up reports. As a result, in 2019, the Navy established a protocol for pilots to report on their dangerous encounters. So, could you speak to any ongoing efforts within DoD to ensure the safety of our aviators with a potential UAP encounter? And what’s your relationship with NORTHCOM, NORAD, Space Comm, when it comes to this immediate, real-time response? And how they’re right there in the moment, right?

    SK: Absolutely. That’s a great question. So, let me start with…my relationship with the Commands are very good. I just came back from sitting down with with General van Herk, and all the J Staff out at NORTHCOMM a couple of weeks ago, talking through exactly what we need to do to help them get their arms around this. We are also working very closely with Joint Staff. And the Joint Staff has just been very outstanding in helping work through policy and guidance issues to the forces and to the services. And I would like to just make sure that we message back to all of the operators, the importance of their reporting, and the fact that you’re about to get a bunch of new requirements that we’re issuing through the Joint Staff, on all of the data that we’re gonna need you to save and report back to us. It is invaluable and we are working to try to take the most advantage of that, to learn what it is that we’re trying to mitigate.

    To get directly to your question: First thing that we’re doing is normalizing our reporting, right? We’re standardizing our reporting and the requirements associated with that. Guidance from the Joint Staff, I think goes out maybe this week, maybe next week, on…that we’ve been working with them for some months, that does exactly what I just said. It gives them timelines, it gives them requirements, it gives them…here’s all the data you have to have. And you gotta retain it. The next thing that comes after that is a plan ord (Planning Order) that will go out to the Commands for mitigation and response. So there’s a couple of things that we have to do. One, I need to work with the Commands and with the IC, and with our…outside of our DoD and IC partners, to extend our collection posture, targeted at some of these key areas that you saw on that heat map that have a lot of activity, so that we can turn on extra collection when an operator sees something. So part of this is generating, as a response function, and what we call a tactic technique and procedure for an operator, when he sees something, calls back to the operations floor, they can turn on additional collection. What does that collection look like? How do I bring all that together so I can get more data on, what is that thing?

    JR: Can I ask, really quickly.

    SK: Sure.

    JR: Do you have the authorities you need to extend your collection posture between agencies or branches of the military? Because that seems to me to maybe be a sticking point. I know my time is just about up. I’d love to follow up about your risk-management methodologies for some of these. But do you have need any authorities that you don’t have to get the data you need?

    SK: There are some authorities that we need. We currently are operating under Title 10 authorities, but we have good relationships across the other agencies. But having additional authorities for collection, tasking, counter-intelligence…

    JR: That’s something you…

    SK: Those are all things that would be helpful, yes.

    KG: Thank you. To follow up. Dr. Kirkpatrick, will you help us write that language so we can put it in the defense bill this year, so that we know what authorities you need?

    SK: Uh huh.We can do that.

    KG: Thank you. We’re gonna start second round, so if you want to stay, you can ask another round. I have at least three more questions.

    JR: I have about a dozen more (laughs).

    KG: Do you want to go right now in case you have to leave? Yeah, go ahead.

    JR: I’m gonna stay on the drones issue because, obviously, we also have Creech Air Force Base, we talked about those Reapers…they’re flying out there. The last category, the Chinese spy balloon, it did cross through the U.S. airspace, shot down by a sidewinder missile, fired from an F-22. Sidewinders cost us close to half a million dollars each. So, given the cost of these missiles, the cost per flight, all of these other things, like I said…follow up on the authorities, your methodologies, the data collection, they can help us in other ways. But how do you think we can develop a sustainable, affordable response to UAPs, where we need to, that may…that will definitely violate our airspace, not may. Definitely violate our airspace every chance that they can get, because they’re our adversaries and they want this information. So what do you think some cost-effective measures might be that we can get what we need out of that, or take them down? Whatever is appropriate, whatever the appropriate measure is, let’s put it that way.

    SK: So that is actually wrapped into the plan ord that we’re working with Joint Staff to send out. What are the Commands need from both a capabilities perspective for kinetic and non-kinetic engagements? What are the response functions of the particular wings or Navy, what have you? And then, what authorities do they need? So one of the challenges that we’ve seen is, you know, there’s an authorities issues with the owners, operators of those ranges, that they need to work through. And we’re working with Joint Staff and OSD. So big picture, we need to do all that. If you want to get down to the specifics for, you know, there are non-kinetic options to engage pretty much everything, right? Whether it’s electronic warfare, whether it’s laser technologies…

    JR: That’s where this data…having the good data collection, predicting analytics, you can make some assumptions on possibilities.

    SK: That’s right. And we will inform recommendations back to The Department on, here’s what could work, here’s what we’ve seen work, here’s what doesn’t work.

    JR: Thank you so much. Thank you, Madam Chair. Appreciate it.

    KG: Thank you very much. I just want to just talk a little bit about your logistics, who you report to, how that’s going, whether you need different reporting lines. By congressional legislation, your office is administratively located within the office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence and Security, but you’re not substantively subordinate to the undersecretary. Rather, you are to direct report to the deputy secretary. Are you taking direction directly from the deputy secretary? Are you able to meet and brief the deputy secretary? Is the office of USD(I&S) working with you to have the right framework?

    SK: So, USD(I&S) and the…I currently report to USD(I&S) until they come up with the plan for how they’re going to implement legislation. DoD and DNI are working through that now. I’d have to refer you back to USD(I&S) on what their plan is. Umm…

    KG: Do I need to update your reporting structure in the next defense bill or is this something that you think will work its way out, or does it need further clarity?

    SK: I think they’re planning on coming back to you with an answer on what that plan is, and I think, at that time, that will inform what you want to do.

    KG: Okay, thank you. As you know, Dr. Kirkpatrick, Congress has mandated that your office establish a discoverable and accessible electronic method for potential witnesses of UAP incidents and potential participants in government UAP-related activities, to contact to your office and tell their stories. Congress also set up a process whereby people subject to non-disclosure agreements, preventing them from disclosing what they may have witnessed or participated in, could tell you what they know without risk of retribution from the…or violation of their NDAs. Have you submitted a public-facing website product for approval to your superiors, and how long has it been under review?

    SK: I have. We submitted the first version of that before Christmas.

    KG: And do you have an estimate from them when they will respond and when you’ll have feedback on that?

    SK: No, I don’t.

    KG: Okay. We will author a letter – asking for that timely response – to your superiors.

    ~~~

    KG: When do you expect that you will establish a public facing, discoverable and access portal for people to use to contact your office, as the law requires?

    SK: So, I would like to first say, thank you all very much for referring the witnesses that you have thus far to us. I appreciate that. We’ve brought in nearly two dozen, so far. It’s been very helpful. I’d ask that you continue to do that until we have an approved plan. We have a multi-phased approach for doing that, that we’ve been socializing and have submitted for approval, some time. And once that happens, then we should be able to push all that out and get this a little more automated.

    KG: Great.

    SK: What I would ask, though, is, as you all continue to refer to us and refer witnesses to us – I’d appreciate if you’d do that – please try to prioritize the ones that you want to do, because we do have a small research staff, dealing with that.

    KG: Thank you. And then, do you have any plans for public engagement that you want to share now, that you think it’s important that the public knows what the plan is?

    SK: So we have a number of public-engagement recommendations, according to our strategic plan. All of those have been submitted for approval, they have to be approved by USD(I&S). We are waiting for approval to go do that.

    KG: Okay, I will follow up on that. And then my last question is about the integration of departments, UAP operations, research, analysis and strategic communications. During the recent UAP incidents over North America, it didn’t appear that you were allowed to play that role. Do you agree that the public perception is generally that you and your office did not appear to play a major role in the Department’s response to the detection of objects over North America? What can you tell us that’s going on behind the scenes, from your perspective? And in the after-action-assessment process, is there awareness that there is a need to operate differently in the future and a commitment to doing so?

    SK: When the objects were first detected, I got called by Joint-Staff leadership to come in late one night to review events as they were unfolding and to give them an assessment, based on what we knew at that time. I did that. I worked with the director of the Joint Staff, the J2 and the J3 that night and over the couple of following days on, what are the types of things that we are tracking from a unidentified object perspective? What databases do we use? Those sorts of things for normal…for known objects, known tracking. Beyond that, their response, I would have to refer you back to the White House for the decision on how they did the response. We did not play a role in what you would respond, other than that initial, you know, advice on what we are seeing and how we are seeing it.

    [the_ad]

    KG: Senator Ernst? (KG’s mic was muted so I’m assuming that’s what she said. ~Joe).

    Senator Joni Ernst (JE): Thank you, Madam Chair. Dr. Kirkpatrick, I know that your office has gotten a lot of attention recently. And, of course, any new agency, there tends to be a push to increase size and funding. We want to make sure that you’re able to meet your goals, but what I also need to ensure is that we’re not duplicating or replicating existing functions and creating redundancy within DoD and the inter-agencies. So, what steps are you taking right now to make sure that your particular office and function is unique to any of the other agencies that might be involved in these types of cases?

    SK: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, I would like to lay down…here’s one of my, you know, sort of my mission and my goal and my vision here. So the vision is, at one point…at some point in the future, you should not need an AARO. If I’m successful in what I’m doing, we should be able to normalize everything that we’re doing into existing processes, functions, agencies and organizations, and make that part of their mission and their role. Right now, the niche that we form is really going after the unknowns. I think you articulated it early on, this is a hunt mission for what might somebody be doing in our backyard that we don’t know about. Alright, well, that, that, that is what we are doing, right? But at some point, we should be able to normalize that. That’s why it’s so important the work we’re doing with Joint Staff to normalize that into DoD policy and guidance. We are bringing in all of our interagency partners. So NASA is providing a liaison for us. I have FBI liaison, I have OSI liaison, I have service liaisons. Half of my staff come from the IC. Half of my staff come from other scientific and technical backgrounds. I have DOE. And so, what we’re trying to do is ensure, again, as I make UAP into SEP, they get handed off to the people that that is their mission to go do. So that we aren’t duplicating that. I’m not gonna go chase the Chinese high-altitude balloon, for example. That’s not my job. It’s not an unknown and it’s not anomalous, anymore. Now it goes over to them…right?

    JE: Very good. Thank you, Madam Chair.

    KG: Thank you. I want to just to follow up on the filters for surveillance. Outside observers have speculated that DoD sets filters on certain sensors to eliminate objects that are moving really fast or slow, because what we are looking for, militarily, are conventional aircraft and missiles.

    ~~~

    “If these radars are so heavily filtered that they did not detect the objects swarming the USS Omaha and USS Russell off the coast of California in 2019, then perhaps it is time to modify the filtering algorithms of these radars or perhaps feed the same radar data in real-time into a separate filtering process tailored to detect and assess these new potential new threats. Otherwise, we risk needlessly missing vital intelligence information.”

    ~Christopher Mellon in “The Debrief”

    ~~~

    KG: UAP that doesn’t fit into these programs would thereby be weeded out and never noticed. The spectrum of speculation was proven to be true during the UAP incidents over North America, where DoD publicly acknowledged that we were able to start seeing these UAPs only when we opened up these filters. Obviously, our military operators cannot be overloaded with objects that are not conventional aircraft or missiles. Can you nonetheless make sure that the raw data is being captured and subsequently processed so that your office knows what’s really out there? And is that going to cost money, will you expect to pay for that money out of AARO’s budget?

    SK: One of the key tenants that we’re trying to do in our science plan is understand what those signatures are. So we get all the raw, for example, radar data, prior to the scrubbing and filtering to allow it to enter into our weapon systems and our detection systems. We are now taking all that data and cross correlating it to what pilots are saying they’re seeing or other observations from other operators. What that allows us to do is then see if there are any signatures in that data that I can pull out, generate – what we’ll call automatic-target-recognition algorithms – that allow us to then use that signature associated with [an] observed UAP, whatever that UAP may be. We will then make those recommendations, of what those changes should be, back to the department. So the deputy secretary had asked me last October to make those recommendations. What changes do we need to make to radars, to platforms, to detection systems, and algorithms, to pull on those algorithms [and] make those changes? That’s gonna take some time, that’s where the research and development comes in, right? It’s not instantaneous. Right now, a lot of the…I won’t say, a lot of the things that fall outside of the ranges of those filters have been identified by people in the loop, and you can’t have people in the loop all the time. It’s just not cost effective. So part of our budget is working through, what does that look like, and then making those recommendations back to the big-program offices for them to put into changes and acquisition.

    KG: My last question is about the academic community. Can you give us an update on sort of how you collaborate with the academic community and whether…how the independent study being done by NASA complements AARO’s work?

    SK: Sure. Two questions so I’m gonna try to make it quick. In 1979, Carl Sagan said, “Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence.” I would go one step further, and I would say, extraordinary claims, require not only extraordinary evidence, but extraordinary science. And so how do you do that? You do that with the scientific method, right? And so as AARO is developing and implementing its science plan, it has to do so grounded in a solid foundation of scientific theory, across the entire range of hypotheses that have been presented for what UAP are. That range spans, adversary-breakthrough technology on one hand, known objects and phenomena in the middle, all the way to the extreme theories of extraterrestrials. All of that has physics-based signatures associated with it. Whether it’s theoretical, from the academic community, known from things like hypersonic weapons, or adversary-breakthrough technologies, as we’ve talked about before. Or the known objects that we have to go measure. The idea is, across that entire range, you have to come up with peer-reviewed, scientific basis for all of it. The academic community plays a very big role on the one end of the spectrum, the intelligence community on the other end of the spectrum, and then measurement in the middle. Once I have those signatures identified in validated, peer-reviewed documents, then I have something to point to for all that data. Because all that data is gonna match one of those signatures, right? And then I can go, “Well, it’s that and not that,” or, “It’s that.” And that helps us go through all that.

    Where NASA comes in and the study that they’re doing, which I’m supporting, is really looking at the unclassified, data sources that might be used to augment our classified data sources, to understand if there’s a signature there we can pull on. So very similar to the radars, but civil capabilities. So, for example, we have a lot of climate-science satellites, for example, that look at Earth. Lots of them. How many of those is the data valuable in seeing these kinds of objects? The challenge in that is those platforms don’t necessarily have the resolution you need. So if you remember the slide I put up there with the trends, the size of the objects we’re looking for are typically reported to be one to four meters. Well, the resolution of many of the climate science, civil satellites, is much larger than that, which means you’d have a hard time picking out something that’s smaller than a pixel on the imagery, on the data. That’s not to say all of it’s not useful and there are ways of pulling through that data and going… That is what NASA is focused on right now. What are some other data sources that could be used? In addition, things like open source and crowdsourcing of data, we’re exploring public/private partnerships. Ma’am, as you know, we’ve talked about in the past, to look at: Is there a way to smartly crowdsource additional data that might be useful to augment some of my classified sources? And what does that look like? And how would we do it so that we’re not overwhelmed by, you know, everybody who wants to take a picture of everything?

    KG: Is there anything else you’d like to tell the committee before we close?

    SK: Thank you very much for allowing us to come and share a little bit of insight into what AARO’s up to and what we’re doing. I hope to be able to share a whole lot more in the future. We have a lot of work to do, so if you don’t hear from me outside, it’s because we’ve got a lot of work to do.

    KG: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Kirkpatrick, thank you for the hearing.

    SK: Thank you.

    [the_ad_placement]

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  • Transcript – Active-Duty Navy Commander Comes Forward & Witnesses Speak Out On 2019 UFO Swarms: We’ve Never Seen Anything Like This. They Just Seemed To Appear

    Transcript – Active-Duty Navy Commander Comes Forward & Witnesses Speak Out On 2019 UFO Swarms: We’ve Never Seen Anything Like This. They Just Seemed To Appear

    “Then it moves to the starboard side, right across, and they scurry across the ship. And they’re kind of, you know, going through wherever they need to go to get to the other side. And they maintain eyes on it, because they’re just shocked at what they’re seeing. And then, probably the most dramatic part of the of the event was…once it moved to the starboard side of the ship, it just shot straight up into the air. And the word that the sailor that we spoke with used was, ‘It just zoomed, it zoomed, it zoomed straight up in the air.”

    ~John “Guts” Gutierrez

    ~~~~

    If you like what you see on my blog, my Twitter and YouTube Channel and appreciate the time and effort, here are links to my PatreonPay Pal and Venmo. I appreciate any and all support. Without that support, I would struggle to do this as much as I do.

    ~~~

    Patreon – https://www.patreon.com/ufojoe

    PayPalufojoe11@aol.com

    Venmo – www.venmo.com/u/ufojoe

    ~~~

    Episode 2 of, “Weaponized,” with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp.

    ~~~

    From the YouTube summary:

    John “Guts” Gutierrez is an active duty Navy Commander having served for 17 years, initially as a helicopter pilot deployed all over the world, and credentialed as an Aviation Safety Officer. He’s a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis and has a personal passion for the UAP mystery. In this episode of WEAPONIZED, Jeremy & George talk with John about his life and personal perspective on the current, global UAP mystery. They also talk in-depth about the now famous UFO swarm event series that occurred off the coast of California in 2019. This is a case now widely known due to Jeremy’s & George’s reporting on the events. This dramatic UFO event series included 10 Navy warships that were brazenly swarmed by over 100 Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). For the first time ever – we get to hear what really happened – directly from two military eyewitnesses tasked with responding to the incursions within United States restricted airspace.

    • • •

    WEAPONIZED would like to make clear that John is not speaking in any official capacity. He is not representing the U.S. Navy, the DoD or U.S. Government. All views and opinions expressed throughout the podcast by John [and by the anonymous service members] are strictly his/their own – and in no way represent the official position of the U.S. Navy, DoD or U.S. Government.

    ~ ~ ~

    Jeremy Corbell (JC): “This is my good friend, John, who you know. We’ve known each other a long time, John.”

    John Gutierrez (Guts): “We have, we have.”

    JC: “I’m really excited that we’re able to talk.”

    Guts: “Yeah, man.”

    JC: “You know, officially, like, on camera, you know, on audio, for people to kind of learn about you, our friendship, that kind of thing. So, can you tell me, John, a little bit about yourself.”

    Guts: “So, I’m an active-duty, Navy Commander. I’ve been in for about 17 years. Originally, as a helo pilot, is my background. So I definitely have experience in the aviation community. But, you know, I’ve been deployed all over the world, obviously got a chance to meet you along the way. And just just happy to be here.”

    George Knapp (GK): “Can you give us a sense of how you got interested in the UFO topic, and how that led to a friendship with Jeremy?”

    Guts: “Sure, absolutely. You know, lifelong interest, starting as a kid. Wanted to be an astronaut, you know, I guess, like every other kid, but as I got older, that was kind of like, a real goal. And so, that’s eventually how I ended up at the Naval Academy. We can get into that a little bit later, if we want. But lifelong interest, kind of starting with the astronaut aspirations. Turns out, it’s really hard to be an astronaut, by the way (GK laughs). Definitely, they take the cream of the crop for that group. But, you know, kind of, throughout my life, there were always these kind of figures growing up, adults in my life, that, you know, they took the topic seriously. Really, any topic, you know? My mom’s from Central America, and we’d go visit, you know, every summer, growing up. There’s a lot to be said for sitting around a table as a kid, with a bunch of adults around you, having serious discussions about maybe some, you know, call it paranormal topics. And as a kid that made a big impression on me, you know? To hear, you know, my aunt bringing up a story of, you know, ‘Hey, so and so saw something the other night that looked really weird.’ And instead of dismissing it, you know, outright or people snickering or laughing, it’s like, ‘Oh, really?’ And, you know, just having having serious discussions about it. Same thing, you know, my dad was one of the first ones that ever mentioned, you know, Area 51, and the possibility of what’s out in the desert, you know? But again, not, in a joking way, just kind of taking it seriously, you know?

    “And then, of course, there were some, you know…I’m a child of the nineties so, I’m definitely…there was some big pop culture influences on me. X-Files was a big one. And even that, you know, we’d have a family friend come over, a former military guy, a former Marine, and we’d watch an episode of X-Files. And at the end of it, you know, he goes, ‘You know, there’s little bit of kernel of truth in that episode.’ And he’d go into a whole thing about the kernel of truth behind that particular episode. And then, of course, for me, you know, listening to Coast to Coast, you know, which I’m sure you’re familiar with. But, growing up, my dad owned and operated a family restaurant in my hometown. If I wasn’t playing football, or getting in trouble with my friends, I was working, you know, I was working at the restaurant. And, you know, Friday, Saturday nights, we’d be up late, trying to shut things down and go home. And by the time we’d get out of the restaurant, on Friday and Saturday nights, you know, it’s eleven, twelve o’clock at night. And my dad would drive me home, you know, a twenty, thirty-minute drive to the house or whatever, and he’d flip on the radio. And the only think to listen to that’s worth listening to at that hour is a show like Coast. And so, you know, kind of those, again, people trying to have, you know, serious discussions about topics that maybe would be considered unorthodox, or, you know, kind of on the fringes. And then, eventually, I never suspected that what would eventually be my professional career would come crashing so closely with my personal passions and interests, you know? But they definitely have, you know, in a big way, so.”

    JC: “So kind of listening to George on Coast to Coast was really, as a kid, the way that you, like me, kind of got this on your radar through family and just, you know, in the zeitgeist, just listening to the radio.

    Guts: “Yeah. absolutely. And again, just listening to serious people have serious discussions about it. When you’re a kid, you kind of look to those around you to see, well what’s their reaction like, are they taking it seriously, are they laughing, are they not? Luckily for me, the way I was raised, my parents were always very open minded and kind of accepted of what people brought to us. Obviously, with a discerning eye, always. Even though it’s been a personal passion/interest, I’d like to think that I’m somebody who’s taken it seriously and tried to sort the wheat from chaff, as they say. It’s hard. It’s hard to kind of shift through all the noise and all the scatter that’s out there. But boy, I think when you can do that and do it successfully, I think it goes a long way.”

    GK: “So as you pursue your naval career, you rise through the ranks. And it’s obviously not on your front burner, thinking about UFOs.”

    Guts: “No, no.”

    GK: “Maybe in the back of your mind. At what point do you cross paths with Jeremy and how do you begin a conversation with him?”

    Guts: “Let me say, first, too: I’m not here on behalf of the Navy, or I’m not here representing the Navy in any way. It happens to be my career and my profession, which I’m very thankful for and I’m proud of my service, and I wouldn’t change a single thing. You know, the Navy’s been good to me and my family, and I’m married with three young kids and everything we have I owe to the Navy. But in that sense, I’m not here with my Navy hat on, it just happens to be my job. So, please don’t take anything that I’m saying…it’s just my opinion.”

    GK: “Yeah, absolutely because it’s a good point.”

    Guts: “Yeah, no, it’s just my opinion and I think it’s important, when it’s appropriate, to hear from folks that may have either had experiences or just kind of help the public understand, kind of the military perspective. Because it’s hard. There’s a lot of jargon, there’s a lot of nuance, there’s a lot of the military culture. Unfortunately, a lot of what people know, is just what they see in the movies and on TV. And that’s part of it. But the reality is a little bit different.

    “But with Jeremy, we met back in 2015, I think it was. Actually, I think it was a little before the summer of 2014, let’s say. I was listening to Coast, and I had heard that an individual by the name of Bob Lazar was going to be coming out for the first time in a long time, to a certain conference out in Arizona.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Guts: “Like I said, it’s the summer of 2014, I think the conference was in February of 2015. So that kind of piqued my interest, obviously, right? I listened to that show and I’d always known kind of who Bob was, and was familiar with his story.

    Watch for Free: Bob Lazar: Area 51 & Flying Saucers

    ~~~

    Guts: “But I had a friend of mine, who will go unnamed. But another good buddy of mine, active-duty guy. A submariner. But this is a guy that I’ve known for over twenty years now, someone that I trust my life with. And I knew that he was a big Bob Lazar fan, let’s call him. And by fan, I mean, you know, again, someone who was interested in the story, but even more so, you know, really tried to follow the story and try to, you know, try to follow the details to make heads or tails of…is it’s true what he’s really saying, you know?

    “So I knew that my buddy was very interested in the Bob Lazar story. I knew that he was going to be on deployment at the time that Bob had decided to come out, to agree to do the conference. So I said, well, what the hell, I’ve had a lifelong interest in this stuff. I’ve never been to a conference myself, up until that point. And at the time, I was stationed in San Diego, and I go, ‘Well, Arizona’s not too far.’ So, pack up the kids and the wife and, ‘We’re going in the desert to hear people talk about UFOs and to listen to Bob.’ So we get there, and I think I came across you (Corbell) at…you had a booth set up or whatever. And at the time, I think you had a little 10-12 minute clip of Bob that people…again, no one had really heard from him in that way that you had put him out, up until that point. And I think I came up to you and said, ‘Hey man, how much for a signed, Bob Lazar poster?’ Because I really wanted it for my buddy. That’s really what it was. The whole impetus for that was just, I thought it’d be really cool as a homecoming gift for him. You know, being out on deployment, you know, submarine duty is tough. So I kind of wanted something nice for him to come home to and and be able to provide him, ‘Hey, check out what I got for you!’ And no, it wasn’t even for me. So I think that was kind of the start.”

    JC: “Yeah, yeah, it’s funny man. You came up and I didn’t know what to do because I had only printed these posters because people were gonna kill me if I didn’t have something from the little short film, interview thing. And so, finally, I think we met up later that night, and you were like, ‘This is for my buddy and he’s gonna be so stoked.’ Who now, I know, and I’m friends with as well. But that was just kind of cool, that was the first way that we met. It’s kind of funny, like, you know, you’re (Knapp) reporting and with Bob, brings all these people together. We struck up a friendship, and he (Guts) came out to my place out in Pioneertown and it just kind of started from there.”

    Guts: “Absolutely, I think at the time, we exchanged emails. And I remember, it’s funny, you were very gracious.”

    JC: “Okay, good.”

    Guts: “You were very gracious and you weren’t putting on any airs or anything, and real easy to talk to and get along with. And you told me, ‘Yeah, let’s keep in touch.’ I [was thinking], this guy’s…whatever, he’s pulling my leg.”

    GK: “I think it’s important…we’re gonna delve into some really cool areas, sensitive materials and incidents. But I think it’s important to say…”

    Guts: “Nothing too sensitive (smiles).”

    GK: “Yeah, of course. Within limits. We’ll push it as hard as we can (JC and Guts laugh). Whatever we can get away with. It’s important, I think, as people are watching or listening at home, and are assuming, ‘Well, if he’s friends with Jeremy, maybe this is the guy that’s leaking stuff, images and things like that?’”

    Guts: “Oh no, no. No, no, no, no.”

    GK: “You should make that clear about the nature of your relationship.”

    Guts: “Sure. Let me make it abundantly clear: No, I am not Jeremy’s source on anything that he’s put out. I take my job seriously, I’m able to keep my personal passions and, like I said, my professional obligations and duties, keep those two worlds separate. You have to…especially with this job and the world of security clearances and things like that. You have to be able to do that. As an aviator, they train us to compartmentalized a lot of stuff to be able to go fly. So, maybe for someone like me, or a fellow aviator, it’s a little more inherent to be able to do that, because they train you to do that. So kind of keeping those worlds separate is paramount. As close as we are, I would never violate the sanctity of any…”

    GK: “And you’re cognizant of that, too, Jeremy. He’s your friend. You don’t want to put him in a position where he gets in trouble.”

    JC: “I would never do that. And to kind of push that…so people really understand: For me, with Guts, is, he’s a rational-minded person that has  experience as an aviator, long military career, an active, Navy commander. All of this is a perspective that is real important to some of the stuff that you and I are looking at. So, what I’ll do, over the years, is I’d be like, ‘Hey man, I got this witness, they’re coming at me with this story or something. Can I verify…did they go to the Annapolis Naval Academy with you?’ Just in general. Like, is this a real person? What does this word mean? What should I be thinking about? Just basic stuff is how I come to – well I call him Guts, which is his call sign – John, right? The basic thing that I’ll do is utilize his basic expertise to help me sort what I’m looking at. Now, it’s gotten much deeper over the years and he’s seen some of the stuff that we’ve obtained & released to the public. I mean, I’ve never, ever…first of all, I’ll just put it right out there: It’s not a source, and you know that, but, I mean, just publicly, something has to be vetted over and over and over. I have to receive something three or four times to feel that it is valid, and then to go in and look at it. You’ve never asked me, and I’ve never talked to you about sources, which I think is important to kind of…”

    Guts: “Yeah, no…absolutely. To the contrary of your (Knapp) point of, you know, feeding stuff to Jeremy. Absolutely not. I’ve never done anything like that. On the contrary, I’ve been…I don’t know what the right word is…genuinely shocked, surprised, impressed, however you want to put it, of the sources that you do have & maintain. I have no idea who they are. Kind of like you would never put me in that position, I would never put you in that position, either. I don’t wanna know. But, again, as someone who takes it seriously, as someone who has a passion for…certainly the world of aviation safety, that’s kind of the angle that I’m coming at it from. I certainly have an interest [in] the stuff that you put out.”

    [the_ad]

    JC: “First of all, the Pentagon has confirmed that what we released was actual Navy film footage. I mean, is it okay to ask you: Were you aware of this material after seeing George and I release it?”

    Guts: “There were a couple of things that you guys had put out that I had been previously aware of. Yeah, absolutely. So, when I saw it again, in the form that you put it out, it was like, ‘Whoa, okay.’”

    GK: “You’re glad it comes out.”

    Guts: “Yeah, it adds a certain level of credibility or validity to the products that you guys put out. It’s real.”

    GK: “Five years, we’ve seen such a dramatic change in how the topic is regarded by mainstream media, Congress is looking at it, the public is energized. I mean, it’s an amazing about face and transformation of events I never thought I would see. But, I’m curious: In private conversations, you’ve told us, the Navy is global, it’s a big place, but it’s also a small place. Can you give us a sense of, during these five years of tumultuous change and so much public attention on the UFO issue and questions, is it discussed among your colleagues? Is it something that you talk about on a regular basis?”

    Guts: “Well, it is and it isn’t. It kind just depends on who you talk to. All my buddies, sure, I’m the Fox Mulder of the squadron. Oh, UFO stuff? Talk to Guts. It is and it isn’t. Certainly, 2017 was a big year. When someone like Commander Fravor comes out and shares his story, that’s a big deal. It’s a really big deal. Someone like Chad Underwood, that you’ve talked to. When they come out and provide their story, it’s a big deal. Ryan Graves and all the rest.”

    ~~~

    JC: “For people who don’t about this stuff, right? So, you’re talking about Commander David Fravor and Commander Chad Underwood. Commander David Fravor was the guy that chased a UFO for the United States military, famously called the Tic Tac UFO incident. Which is now famous because the NYT and everything…the interviews George and I did with Dave Fravor, and also with Commander Underwood. He’s the guy that filmed the Tic Tac UFO. So we have a witness report from a pilot who was the head of the Black Aces, then you got somebody who he sends out to film this UFO, and films it.”

    Part 1 – Fravor interviewed by Knapp and Corbell

    ~~~

    Part 2 – Fravor interviewed by Knapp and Corbell

    ~~~

    Chad Underwood, the man who filmed the Tic Tac UFO, interviewed by Corbell

    ~~~

    JC: “And it’s FLIR footage that’s put out to the world. So, for people who don’t know, that’s what we’re talking about. When I first I told you I was talking with a Navy commander who chased a UFO, what was your reaction?”

    Guts: “Oh, it’s bullshit, it’s total bullshit. I didn’t believe you, man. And again, that kind of goes back to the whole sorting wheat from the…you gotta have a good bs meter. I don’t have to tell you that. You really gotta have a good bs meter with all this stuff. When you first mentioned that you had somebody of the status of Commander Fravor, I didn’t believe it. That’s too good to be true. It’s a perfect witness, when you think about it.”

    JC: “Why?”

    Guts: “Well, and like I’ve told you before, privately, I wish people, I wish the general public more inherently understood the quality of the caliber of witness, the quality of witness that a guy like Commander Fravor is. Why? Number one, he’s an aviator, so I gotta, you know, I’m biased towards that. Listen, he’s a jet jock. He’s as close to the real-life Maverick, Tom Cruise, that you’re gonna get in real life. He’s the CO (Commanding Officer) of his own jet squadron, The Black Aces, that deploys around the world. Which again, in our world, there’s no one above that, obviously. He’s a Naval Academy graduate. He’s a Top Gun graduate. I believe he was an instructor but don’t quote me on that. But again, this is somebody that, when they speak, people should listen and take what they’re saying seriously.

    “And so, do people talk about it? Yeah, but it’s not prolific. Even today, you’ll come across active-duty folks, ‘Have you ever heard of Commander Fravor?’ And they’ll go, ‘Who’s that?’ I go, ‘How the hell do you not know about that?’ So look, we do talk…at least my perspective is it’s not a dirty little secret or anything like that. If people wanna talk about it, they talk about it. Which is great, because another reason why I would agree to come on and do something like this…there’s stigma with this stuff. There’s been a stigma for a long time and I think we’re turning a corner…it feels like it. But there’s still a lot of work to be done.”

    JC: “How does that show up in your, kind of, line of work. How does the stigma to unidentified flying objects and pilots having to deal with that? Near misses, should we engage or should we not? How does stigma show up in your field?”

    Guts: “Well the way it comes up is, it’s kind of, those who have had an experience and those who haven’t, right? For the guys that have run into this stuff on a daily basis, for them it’s real.”

    JC: “And they have?”

    Guts: “And they have. That’s a fact.”

    JC: “Pilots are running into unidentified flying objects on a daily basis. They’re seeing them, picking them up on radar?”

    Guts: “That’s a fact, okay? For them, it’s real, and stigma be damned. Because you can’t tell a guy, something that just flew by your cockpit at fifty feet away from you…you can’t deny that. The way the stigma shows up is for those who haven’t [had these experiences], who aren’t interested in this stuff and who don’t understand the aviation safety aspects associated with UAP. And so, that’s kind of why I classify it that way. Those who have had the experiences and those who haven’t. And for those who haven’t, it’s just hard for them to wrap their mind around it. It’s still a big mystery. We don’t know what this stuff is.”

    GK: “2017, Jeremy and I were able to break the story of the Tic Tac, twice, on Coast to Coast, months before it came out in the New York Times. And because of how Jeremy treated Fravor with respect, that word gets around. It helps cultivate other sources and it’s served both of us really well. When that story comes out, though, it leads to changes in the Navy. I mean. the Navy comes out and says, ‘We wanna make it easier for our aviators and other service members to go ahead and report this stuff when it happens, so that there’s less stigma attached, it’s not gonna hurt your career.’ The Navy has lead the charge. I wanna know if this is a source of pride for you, when you compare it to, say, the Air Force. Which, I’ll just say it, they’re flat out dragging their butts on this stuff.”

    ~~~

    GN: “They’ve been uncooperative with Congress, with the UAP Task Force. You know that they’re sitting on a big pile of information that they’re not sharing, and they’ll have to be dragged kicking and screaming. The Navy, at least, ostensibly, is much more cooperative. Are you proud of that, the Navy doing that?”

    Guts: “Without question. Obviously, yeah, I’m biased towards the naval service. But, I am proud. I’m proud of the way that we have tried to tackle this topic, because there’s a real concern  out there. We got guys in the air, coming across things that we don’t know what they are, and the risk for a near, mid-air collision, or God forbid, an actual, mid-air collision, is there. It’s really there. And the fact that the Navy has tried to implement, maybe, easier reporting procedures or guidelines to make it okay for pilots not to be afraid to say, ‘Hey, you know, I saw this thing, I don’t know what it is, but I almost hit it.’”

    [the_ad_placement]

    JC: “Have you seen that change? I mean, now, is it easier to report it? Because I remember, you were looking: When are the new commandments coming down on how to report this?”

    Guts: “From personal experience, from my perspective as a helo (helicopter) guy, I don’t think it trickled down to our level, necessarily, because maybe we weren’t, necessarily, the type of platform that was encountering this stuff on a daily basis. But again, if u talk to guys on East Coast, based out of Oceania, certainly the paradigm has shifted for guys like that for sure.”

    JC: “And you’ve directly talked with a lot of these guys?”

    Guts: “Absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, for guys like them, it was definitely a noticeable change. Was it fleet-wide? I can’t speak to that. I don’t really have an opinion on that. But the fact that, like you said, George, the fact that the Navy did at least seem to be taking the lead on it, absolutely, it’s a point of pride for me. I won’t bash my other brothers and sisters in the other services but I can’t speak to what their plans are, what their intentions are with all this stuff. But there have been some glaring silences, if I can classify it that way, from other services that it kind of makes you scratch your head. Because this is not only a Navy thing, it’s not only an East Coast thing, it’s not only a West Coast thing. It’s worldwide. People are seeing this stuff everywhere.”

    ~~~

    JC: “So you have direct knowledge that unidentified craft, that don’t seem to have the typical, what we’d call, propulsion – what we’d see: rotors, wash, plumes, heat signatures – that these are being encountered by our…we’ll just say, Department of Defense, and we’ll say our…all branches of the military that are in the air, doing this. They’re being encountered. They’re encountering these things that we don’t know whose they are, we don’t know who operates them, we don’t know their intent. I mean, that is…you’re saying that, right?”

    Guts: “Yeah, I mean, that’s my opinion. And again, I’m not speaking on behalf of the DoD or the service in any way. But, no…yeah, I mean, if you’re asking me and my opinion? Absolutely.”

    JC: “That would seem important to me, that our defense systems…my perspective is that that seems important to me. We should know whose vehicles these are.”

    Guts: “Absolutely. Look, at the end of the day, the profession of arms is to defend the country and to defend our allies around the world. And if we’re coming across stuff that we don’t know what it is? We want to know what that is. I’ve heard…there’s been criticism in the media over the years about this threat narrative. Well, I’m sorry but you can’t blame a guy whose job it is, is to access threats and take care of them. I mean, that’s our job.”

    ~~~

    JC: “Explain that a little bit more for people that are totally new to this. The idea that there are UFOs, they’re unidentified objects, and what’s the threat narrative?”

    Guts: “Well, the threat narrative being that a lot of the language that some people have used when talking about UAP or unidentifieds, is, for example…AATIP. Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. The word threat is in the title of the program, right? And there are people that had some problems with that or issues. Why are they looking at this as a threat? We don’t know what they are. Well, again, from the perspective of the profession of arms, from the perspective of the defense and the national interests of the United States, unless you know what you’re dealing with, you kind of have to, unfortunately – again, just my opinion here – it’s a default position that you kind of have to take. Because, at the end of the day, we don’t know what we’re dealing with. So, I think that’s why.”

    JC: “Yeah, I mean, so you’ve got the one perspective, which is that from a national defense-position, we should know who’s making these objects, who’s flying them, what the intent is. If we don’t know, we better find out. And then, from another perspective, it’s a flight-safety issue. You’ve got these objects and people every day, there have been some near misses. And then there’s the bigger existential questions that come after that, another narrative about the UFO phenomenon. It’s been here for so long, maybe we’re just seeing them more because our technology and our radar systems are integrated, we have better camera systems, better radars, maybe it’s always been here. The idea that there’s an increase in frequency…it appears that way to us, but we don’t know for certain because maybe they’ve always been there and we’re just seeing them more. Who knows?”

    [the_ad]

    GK: “Can I ask you: Have you become, sort of the unofficial clearinghouse for UFO stories and encounters and tidbits within your circle? I’m asking that in the context of what we talked about before. The Navy’s a small place, you said. So does the word get around, ‘Hey, this guy is interested in this.’ I’m not saying you’re conducting a secret study on behalf of the Navy, but you come across people who have their own stories.”

    Guts: “Yeah, absolutely. You know, just in the course of your natural, you know, meeting people and getting to know folks. You know, that’s not the first thing I tell people when I meet them. But, you know, you get to know people and you work in close quarters, and you’re working long hours, long days and long nights, sometimes….you can get to know people. And once I’ve become comfortable with someone and I feel like, ‘Okay, I can.’ Again, stigma, right? If I’m comfortable, if I trust them, that they won’t think I’m a crackpot, I’ll mention, ‘Hey, you know…’ It’s funny, you know, before, there was no real inroad to that conversation, but now, ‘Hey, ever heard of Dave Fravor? Hey, you ever heard of,’ name your incident or name your case.”

    JC: “Right. Like a lot has changed over the last five years or so?”

    Guts: “Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.”

    JC: “So our Navy people are taking this seriously.”

    Guts: “Well…”

    JC: “Should I reword the question? Is it your experience that people that you see are taking this serious?”

    Guts: “Yeah, yeah. I think they’re…well, they’re certainly taking it more seriously now than they ever have. I’ll tell you that. There’s been a big sea change. And I’ve told, you know, close buddies of mine, you know, that I’ve flown with before, ‘Hey, if you ever see something, don’t be afraid to let me know.’”

    GK: “But you don’t go like, ‘Hey, I’m John, nice to meet you. Have you ever seen an alien?’”

    Guts: “No, no, no, no, no, no.”

    JC: “I mean, that’s not, you know, knowing John, he’s always been really, like, really at times, real skeptical, as he should be. But he always goes for, okay, what’s the core of it? I think one of the big things that we’re going to talk about, but I want to hear about your perspective on what the world has seen, when it comes to the big ones. Let’s talk about, you know, when it comes to the Tic Tac video, when it comes to the Gimbal video. So many people have tried to say, ‘Nothing to see here, move on.’ And they try to dissect it to bits where it’s almost like a syndrome, that they’re not seeing what’s right in front of them. So can you maybe tell us a little bit about those videos that kind of came forward? Did that change the way that you saw stuff? Or was that interesting to you? Or?”

    Guts: “I mean, for me, absolutely. You know, it definitely did. Again, those videos are tough, because if you don’t know what you’re looking at, you don’t know what you’re looking at. And it’s hard to dissect what those videos are presenting to you. But, you know, again, just with my background, and my experience as an aviator, when you look at something like Gimbal, for example, or you look at something like Tic Tac or Go Fast, what have you, any number of videos that have been released.”

    ~~~

    Guts: “When you’re looking at that stuff, and you realize, ‘Okay.’ And you hear the audio of the pilots as well, talking about it. You got an object going against the wind, the wind’s 120 knots or whatever the heck it is. You see this thing maintaining flight, presumably with no visible means of propulsion or traditional control surfaces. I mean, that’s huge. Now you get somebody, average Joe citizen who says, ‘Well, you know, it’s not in HD.’ Well, okay, that’s…all right. That’s…”

    GK: “Hey, it’s grainy.”

    Guts: “Yeah, it’s grainy, you know.”

    JC: “Neil Tyson said that, it pissed me off. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.”

    Guts: “To that point, it’s unfortunate that someone who should, at least in my opinion, someone who should know better would say something like that, right? Folks got to remember, you know, the tools and instruments that we’re flying with…number one, they’re not iPhones, okay? They’re not designed to be taking selfies in the air and post them on social media afterwards to get Likes and posts and all that stuff.”

    JC: “These are targeting pods, weapons systems.”

    Guts: “Listen, these are weapons systems that we have been trained on to defend the American people with. These are weapons systems, they’re not designed to capture UFOs, they’re not designed to capture UAP. We’re not UFO hunters, you know?”

    GK: “You’re not there to make a movie or  a TV show.”

    Guts: “We’re not there to make a movie or a TV show, we’re there to defend the nation. So when people talk about the quote, unquote, ‘quality of the footage,’ or the lack of HD or 1080p, or whatever the hell you want to call it, it’s just a little frustrating because people have to realize and remember that look, these systems that we’re using to capture this stuff were not designed to do that. They were designed to wage war on behalf of the American [people], if I’m being blunt. That’s what they were designed to do. We just happen to be in the right place at the right time or the wrong place at the wrong time. Or however you want to look at it, from which perspective. But people have to understand, that look, these videos, there’s a lot more there that people need to inherently understand and realize, there’s something weird here. It’s not…”

    JC: “And look, the exclusion of information drives me crazy, right? So we can’t go against the Tic Tac information because you got Commander David Fravor standing up there and being like, ‘Oh, no, I saw it. That’s it.’ You know, you’ve got Commander Chad Underwood, coming forward, like, ‘Nope, I filmed it. That’s what happened. As soon as it shot off to the left, I had them call and look on radar all around, it was gone.’ He said, ‘It didn’t move out of the field of view of the camera, it was gone.’ And if you listened to the interview, ya know. And so, what’s frustrating, what’s difficult is we have, like, the Gimbal. Now you can hear what the pilots are saying. And people are saying, ‘Oh, let’s just exclude what they’re saying and let’s just look at the video.’ Well hold up a second. Isn’t that evidence? Isn’t witness testimony, to corroborate visual evidence?”

    GK: “There’s a whole fleet of them out there.”

    JC: “Isn’t that important?”

    Guts: “Yeah.”

    JC: “So it’s so convenient when people try to dissect things to their desire to be able to minimize something.”

    ~~~

    (On the flip side, the pilot or WSO in the Gimbal encounter said,  “It is a f**king drone, bro.” ~Joe)

    ~~~

    JC: “So the translation, really, in my eyes, the missing link is a lot of these active-duty people, that won’t go on record, they won’t go forward, for fear of their career, for fear of reprisal. If we could just get people to talk with us about this, to go on record. That’s something that I think really builds up public understanding of what we’re seeing in these cases. Now, we don’t have that yet, for the Gimbal. I think we will at some day, but we don’t right now. But I think our goal is to take all the information and look at it, and not just what’s convenient to us.”

    Guts: “Well, look, I think, especially, you know, over the past few weeks, months…there’s been this weird effort amongst certain outlets to kind of try and just dismiss all this stuff away: ‘Oh, we figured it out, case closed.’ And I know from personal experiences, guys that I know, and other people that I trust…look, there’s gonna be more people coming out, there’s gonna be more folks. There are witnesses out there, and when the time is right for them, I’m sure they’ll come out and say what they have to say, and it will be really hard to stick that toothpaste back in the tube. It’s already out.”

    JC: “Meaning…okay, what would stop somebody from coming forward to the public?”

    Guts: “Well look, sure…a lot of things. The fact that they’re still in the military, they’re still active duty. Stigma. Like I said, I think we’re turning a corner but it’s still out there. Depending on, hey, I don’t know, maybe you’re in a squadron where the CO tells you, ‘Hey, you know, what, I don’t care what the hell you saw.’ And I’m not saying this is happening, I’m just saying, you know, it just…it’s person to person. So the folks that you’re around and you’re with, if they’re not okay with you talking about it, that’s going to be real hard for that person to wanna come out and say something.”

    GK: “So, in this last five years, so much tremendous change. The public is energized, Congress, major media. But, there is considerable pushback. We’ve been saying, publicly, for a while now, ‘The closer you get to the truth, the closer you get to the goods, the harder the pushback is going to be.’”

    ~~~

    GK: “And it’s not only from within the military and the Pentagon, people don’t want this to be taken seriously, it’s their emissaries in the public sector. Debunkers, who…all right, Tic Tac is a bird, it’s a seagull, it’s a flare, it’s afterburners, it’s a drone, it’s a balloon. You know, all those things. Let’s see what sticks. They’ll throw all that stuff out.”

    ~~~

    GK: “And we saw the same thing with all the 2019 incidents that we’re going to talk about, the efforts to debunk this stuff. You see those kinds of excuses against the testimony of somebody like Commander Fravor, Commander Underwood, Ryan Graves, people like that. Credible people who are there, who see it, who are experienced. They know what their equipment and their eyes are showing them, are telling them, and yet, these people try to debunk this stuff. You mentioned about media pushback. New York Post has a headline, what is it, ‘2019 cases all explained.’”

    [the_ad_placement]

    JC: “Okay, so let’s get to the brass tax. One of the big things that I wanted the three of us to talk about is what actually happened in 2019, off the West Coast. Why this is important to George and myself, is because we broke that story. We broke that story together. So for everybody that doesn’t know about it, in 2019, in the summer, there was a series of work-ups that were going on off the coast of California. So basically, we had about ten Navy warships that were prepping for departure, and during that work-up, there was a three-night period where there was continuous swarms of unidentifieds, simultaneously around ten Navy warships, that I know of. And it was such a dramatic event, and we were like, ‘Wow, this is incredible!’ And then luckily, George and I were able to get a lot of footage, it was part of a UFO internal report, we were able to put out slides from that report. Images, videos, nine pieces of corroborative, visual evidence. Knapp brought in these three images from the East Coast.”

    Read – West Coast: The U.S. Navy Filmed Pyramid Shaped UFOs

    ~~~

    Read – East Coast: New Photographs Show Different Shaped Objects.

    https://twitter.com/MysteryWire/status/1379602804587790339

    ~~~

    JC: “And we dropped them, basically, all on the same few days. And then, on the West Coast, which was 2019, it was a UFO. People on the ships, it was a UFO-event series. Now, we have done a lot of work in the meantime, and I’ve consulted with you (Guts) on a lot…about these, just, you know, personally, that there was a lot of witnesses to this. Now, a lot of witnesses have said, you know, ‘Jeremy, I want you to know what happened. Here we go, we’re gonna go through it all. But, you know, I’m not coming forward, I’m not going to talk about it,’ right? Now, you weren’t involved in the 2019 series of events.”

    Guts: “No.”

    ~~~

    JC: “But I think it’s really important that, here is now a case that the public can really sink their teeth into. And I maintain that we provided the best we could, what I would consider a dream case. We have thermal imagery, we have IR – infrared, we have radar footage, and we have what I call, deck footage, just normal optics from the deck of a boat. So, it’s not like, just a story anymore. Now we have all these pieces of corroborated, visual evidence that really need to be dissected. What’s happened since we’ve done that, is, obviously, a lot of people go in and they try to dismiss certain things, because that’s what they want to do. And there’s no real voices of the people involved to stand up and say, ‘Well, hold on, you know, that’s not how it went down.’ But I think that’s going to change today. So that’s what we need to talk about now, is how the media has handled that, durationally, a lot of excitement. And then we have these ridiculous stories that get propagated, the one that George just mentioned…New York Post.”

    GK: “A fine newspaper.”

    JC: “And it’s like, 2019, drones series solved. So before we get into that article or anything, what we need to do is go through each of the pieces of footage and evidence. But I think that I want to hear from you first, before we jump into that. Are you satisfied that we have figured this all out? Or are you here today because you’re not satisfied?”

    Guts: “Well, look…and again, just my opinion and nothing more than that. I think there’s more meat on that bone. The case is certainly not closed on that incident. I wasn’t there personally, but you (Knapp) mentioned before, big ocean. little Navy.  And you come across folks, and again, just in your natural course of your career, folks that I personally know and work with now. Who, again, you get to know them a little bit more, and you kind of figure out each other’s backgrounds. ‘Hey, where have you been before?’ And someone will mention, ‘Oh yeah, I was on USS’ Name Your Ship. Well, you know, that ship, I know, happens to have been involved in that 2019 series, right? Talk to someone else. ‘Oh, yeah, I was on USS, Whatever.’ And you go, “Oh, interesting. Were you there in 2019?’ And they say, ‘Yeah, I was there in 2019.’ Oh, okay. Again, it’s just this natural conversation that happens, where you finally get to hear firsthand accounts of people that were no-kidding there, saw things with either their own eyeballs, or on the systems that they’re trained to work on, right? The systems that they’re trained to fight with. And you get to hear their side of the story, right? It’s not a piece of footage, it’s not an audio recording, it’s no-kidding, talking to the folks, firsthand.”

    GK: “And again, this is…you’re not preparing a classified report for higher ups in the Navy, or contributing to the UAP Task Force,”

    Guts: “No, no, no. This is just…”

    GK: “You’re talking to friends, colleagues…”

    Guts: “I’m talking water-cooler talk, if you wanna call it. Conversations that you have with folks, just in your day to day. And again, we happen to be in the military and we happen to be active duty. But no, it’s not a concerted effort, we’re not compiling a report or anything like that. It’s just like, ‘Oh, you were there? Let’s talk about that.’”

    GK: “But again, your impression is, from speaking to them, people who were there, at the incidents we’re gonna talk about is, these are not normal drones. You didn’t buy these at Kmart.”

    Guts: “No, again…just my own opinion, and talking with folks that were there…yeah, no, it doesn’t…no, unfortunately, the New York Post, I think, got it wrong (laughs).”

    JC: “Okay, well let’s get into it. Bit by bit, let’s get in, so that we all better understand it. So, you wanna start with the Omaha, talk about that?
    Guts: “Sure, yeah.”

    ~~~

    JC: “Okay. So, with the USS Omaha, one of the first bits that George and I released, appears to be a sphere that appears to go into the water. And there’s a lot in there, so let’s maybe play that first video, and then we can just say, ‘What are we seeing here?’ Let’s bring everybody up to date, so we can start talking about it.”

    ~~~

    Read – Background: USS Omaha + UFOs In Our Oceans

    ~~~

    ~~~

    JC: “Okay, so we can, you know, see it there. And we’ve all seen it 100 times. So, you don’t gotta look at the screen.”

    GK: “Thermal-imaging system. This is the dead of night, 100 miles off the West Coast. And this thing is following the USS Omaha.”

    JC: “Simultaneously, in this 100-mile radius, which is, you know, far from shore, relatively, you’ve got these objects. This is a spherical-shaped object, this is thermal. So it’s basically a heat-sensing camera. John, in your experience, like, what are we seeing? Like, should we see plumes of heat? What are we seeing and what are we not seeing here?”

    Guts: “Yeah, and again, this is kind of one of those videos where, unless you know what you’re looking at, it’s hard to appreciate the significance of what you’re…yeah, you see it, blink in and out there and disappear. On that particular video, what you see is what you get. If the image is representing an oval shape, the heat signature of whatever it was putting out was oval in nature. What are we not seeing on that clip? We’re not seeing wings, we’re not seeing stabilators, we’re not seeing rotors, we’re not seeing exhaust, right? It’s a thermal-sensing system, meaning you’re gonna catch that heat. And trust me, I can’t tell you how many thousands of times I’ve seen something like that on my own, you know, flying in the helo. Yeah, you see it. So it’s very obvious.

    ~~~

    Guts: “The jet exhaust from an F-18, taken off the deck of an aircraft carrier, at night, is very – hell, even during the day – it’s very, very noticeable, it’s very distinguishable. You know, even if you show me a point five (0.5) second clip of that, I can tell you exactly what it is. We’re not seeing that in this video. There’s none of that there.”

    GK: “Could it be a balloon? I mean, it followed that ship for an hour and there were fourteen other ones around it.”

    Guts: “I don’t see how a balloon could, coincidentally, follow a ship for the duration of time period that the crews said it did. And in winds, okay? It’s not the dead…there’s winds out there, you know, off the coast. And typically, a balloon will will drift in the direction of the wind.”

    GK: “Do you know of any drones that look like that, that are round, with no wings, rotor, tail, no known propulsion?”

    Guts: “No. Me personally? No. No. No.”

    JC: “So usually with FLIR, I’ve seen a lot of drone footage with FLIR, and you see, even if it is a military-grade drone, you see the machine.”

    Guts: “Yes, absolutely. If it’s a quadcopter, let’s say, you can see the individual, you know, copters on the four sides of the thing. You can make all that stuff out.”

    JC: “The people in charge of the Omaha that I’ve spoken with, at various levels, all the way down, but people who are directly involved with fighting the ship and capturing: ‘We’ve never seen anything like this. It has no means of propulsion that we can see. And, in fact, it went into the water.’ And something that I know, is that there was a sub that was sent after, to look for wreckage, to look for the craft itself. And it wasn’t there, it was gone. They called it, within these…what I’ve been exposed to, a trans-medium vehicle. And we’re seeing those words reflected now in Congress and Senate with the UFO whistle-blower act: Trans-medium. What does that mean? Something that can penetrate from space, to air, to sea, with absolute impunity. No inertial effect. That’s what they believe, that’s what we reported.”

    ~~~

    GK: “The question is: Did it go into the water? It seems to disappear into the water or disappear altogether. And some have suggested, ‘Well, it just was over the horizon.’ What do you know? You have further information, though, I think both of you do.”

    JC: “Yes, certainly I do.”

    GK: “Did it go into the water?

    JC: “It did. And not just it, not just one. Remember, so this is like…over the Ohama itself, let’s say we have fourteen targets. I recently have spoken with people who were in charge of going…at the end of the video, you can hear, the dude says, ‘Launch helo,’ right? They did. They launched a helo. And the pilots, and the crew on that helo, reported seeing these things go above their flight altitude to evade them, and then into the water to evade them. So now I’ve got direct eyewitnesses that saw them go into the water, tracked them down into the water. We always thought they were going into the water. That’s what our government told us was happening in these documents we obtained, right? However, now we’ve got eyewitnesses. Now, are they going to come forward to me? Probably not! But, like, I’m telling you, and I’ve been right about everything else.”

    [the_ad]

    GK: “So the helo guys, that would be you, that would be you guys.”

    Guts: “Sure. Yeah. yeah. No, that’s a pretty typical response if there was something…cause you don’t know what it is. Hell, maybe there’s somebody that needs help in the water, and that’s why you would send a helo out there to conduct some sort of search and recovery effort to try and recover whatever it was. I’d love to talk to those pilots myself.”

    JC: “That one, I think, would be very easy to connect you with, right? That’s like, just somebody who..and this is something out of his personal interest. If he wants to talk to them, great. I mean, I don’t need the back-up or for you to say it’s real, but the thing is, for your knowledge, that’s so important. So 100%.”

    Guts: “Let’s be honest, I know we’re gonna have to talk about it here more in a second, but…those aren’t the only witnesses.”

    JC: “No, we’re about to go deep, bro.

    GK: “Before we leave the Omaha, one of the other videos that you made public, Jeremy, is the radar screen, which shows…there’s like fourteen of these things popping in and out around that ship. That kind of circumstance. I mean, I’m sure Navy ships encounter drones and balloons and things, whether they’re closer to shore or out in the ocean, but would that be cause for alarm? I mean, you have these targets of unknown origin all around the ship.”

    Guts: “Absolutely. And I hear…look, I follow #UFOTwitter, and I see the banter going back and forth. And, I hear folks, you know, complaining about. ‘Why didn’t you just shoot them down?’ Well hold on a second. People have to understand…again, it’s not like the movies, it’s not like on TV. We’re not just going guns a-blazing everywhere we go, as much as people would like to think that. There is very specific steps that have to happen for any Navy unit to track something and certainly, engage something. When you’ve got something leaving the barrel, I mean, that’s a big deal.”

    JC: “And you’re just off the coast of California. People forget that.”

    Guts: “We’re just off the coast of California, we’re in our own backyard. We’re not going out there, loaded to bear, every time we go. The majority of our flying is training, we’re out there training. And no, we don’t train with live ordnance. In fact, training with live ordnance happens less often than not. So, yes, it is a big deal that unknowns or unidentifieds are swarming our units. Are there procedures in place to counteract that? Sure, but you gotta remember, we’re not overseas. We’re in our own backyard, conducting training.”

    JC: “Which is both more concerning, right?”

    Guts: “Yeah. yeah.”

    JC: “The thing what you’re saying is you look before you pull the trigger.”

    Guts “100%, absolutely.”

    JC: “So, I’ll give my two cents on it, which is directly from some of the individuals fighting these ships. Is that there is this triangle of kinetic action, which is opportunity, intent & capability. I asked a lot of the sailors, and a lot of people involved, ‘Who would be pulling the trigger?’ I was like, ‘So, how do you feel about this, now that it’s all done?’ They said, ‘I feel like I failed in my duties.’ I go, ‘Well, what do you mean?’ It like, haunts some of these folks, right? Because, it didn’t seem like an aggressive maneuver, it seemed more like a surveillance and performance. These were the words that were said to me. Remember, and I’ll be specific because I don’t think people know: Around these ten ships, there was usually one high altitude, and we know that it went up to about 21,000 feet, which is important to keep in mind. And then there was this ballet around them, taunting, coming in at an angle. However, there was action taken. There was action taken and I think we’ll talk about this. Which is that…on two of the ships in particular, there was anti-drone technology that was attempted to be used. And different types. On one of the ships…it was three different types that they…three different ways. All of which were ineffective. And they went out and did a test after, right? Some of the guys went out and did a test after, to see, ‘Hey, does this stuff work?’”

    Guts: “To test the equipment.”

    JC: “It worked like a charm! They would be able to hit things down, return to sender, no problem.”

    GK: “But it didn’t work in this instance.”

    JC: “It did not work in this instance. And I know of, personally, three ships that…what was three, that tried to – was it two or three – that tried to do this actual defense maneuver. Which, you know, obviously it’s like, no big deal. If something’s there, you can get it down. But also, there was attempts to just find out, where are they coming from. So we’ll get more into that, but let’s show the radar footage. I wanna get your opinion on this.”

    ~~~

    Read – Background: Navy UFO Radar Data & Footage from USS Omaha – 07/15/2019

    ~~~

    JC: “So we’ve all seen this. And I just wanna see…in the middle of the image, that’s the ship, right?”

    Guts: “Yep.”

    JC: “OK. And so, you see these things popping in and out.”

    Guts: The reason this is important is because, again, it’s all about corroborative data, okay? It’s not just the witnesses, it’s not just the thermal footage of an object going in the water. You’ve got a screen capture of real objects around the ship.”

    JC: And there’s up to, I think, fourteen. And the thing is, they’re kind of going in and out of radar. Because in this radar system, if they go below that scan volume, they can kind of disappear for a second. So they were wondering, what’s going on. Turns out, a lot of these were apparently going into the water and having this trans-medium vehicle. Okay, great. So then you’ve got these illuminated objects, about ten to fourteen feet in diameter, that have no control surfaces…that are flying with impunity, and going in and out of the water, going up to like 21,000 feet, at least, that we know of. This is starting to build an interesting case. We’ve got radar now, we’ve got thermal, and a bunch eyewitnesses that people haven’t heard from…YET.”

    GK: As somebody who is completely ignorant of this technology, I’d be wondering: What are they doing? What is the purpose of that? Is it surveillance, intelligence gathering? What would be your guess?

    Guts: Well that’s the million-dollar question, right? Is…who’s operating them? Number one. What’s their intent? Because it’s ambiguous, right? They didn’t crash into the ship, thank God. They weren’t running into people or anything like that. But, they were certainly, like you said and like we’ve heard from folks that we’ve talked to, there was definitely this sense of…maybe some sort of surveillance and performance aspect of it.”

    JC: “Yeah, look what I can do.”

    Guts: “Look what I can do. And we’ll talk about it a little bit later on. But these objects performed maneuvers that are just….I mean, come on. They’re not drones, okay? They’re not conventional drones.”

    JC: “And we’re gonna get into some of what witnesses have said, but I wanna go to the third piece that I think is important. It’s not as visually stunning, it’s the least visually stunning. But the next video is called deck footage.”

    ~~~

    Read: Background: UFO Deck Footage + USS Omaha

    ~~~

    JC: “And…why this is important to me. So you got like a thermal thing, and you’re like, ‘Okay, that’s probably just…you can discard it and say that’s probably just a balloon.’”

    Murgia Tweet: “With video released, does Tyler (Rogoway) still think it’s a balloon?”

    Rogoway Tweet: “YES!”

    ~~~

    JC: “Then you get radar and you realize, ‘Okay, now this is something more substantial.” Then you get this footage, and I thought it was so important, I released it last because it was the least visually stunning. But why this footage, to me, is important, is because now, you can’t say that that’s just, you know, some hot or cold balloon. Like, okay, well it’s self luminous. So now these things got lights. So all of a sudden, they’re machines, right? This is like…so I found this to be important that they’re self luminous. And this is just some dude on the deck filming: ‘Hey, they’re surrounding our ship, what’s going on?’ But I think that that was lost on a lot of people. Again, it establishes, in my mind, corroborative, visual evidence with each new source of evidence. You get another perspective on, you know, I gotta take this a little more seriously. So that video itself is not super impressive, but do you agree that it’s good to have another layer, right?”

    Guts: “I would never discount any of those pieces. It all…they’re all pieces of the puzzle, okay? They’re all pieces of the puzzle and right now, we don’t know if we even have all the pieces to build the puzzle.”

    JC: “I’m pretty sure there’s some being held back, to be honest with you.”

    Guts: “I think so, too. And so, anything that we can get to try and paint an accurate picture of what happened, I think is important.”

    GK: “We put these images out together, Jeremy first on his website, ExtraordinaryBeliefs.com and me on KLAS TV. And, of course, you know, you have a range of responses from the UFO world, including from people who don’t want this to be true. Either they don’t like us, they wanna slap us down. So they go to the Pentagon and say, “Is this real?” And we made a point that all that footage was in the hands of the UAP Task Force and the Pentagon. And to our absolute astonishment, the Pentagon comes back and says, “Yes, it’s real. It was recorded by the Navy.” It gives us a little bit more credibility and shot down a lot of people who wanted to shoot us down.”

    ~~~

    JC: “And also, I mean, let’s, again, because this is like a brand new conversation we’re having about it. Let’s be clear, for everybody who doesn’t know. Which is that…and I’ve said it before, and we’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: So, we had knowledge of certain assets that were in a UFO briefing that was being passed around within our military and our government, to train people in order how to identify true UFOs & then how to report them. Now this was a classified briefing that was going around within the military, that as journalists, we got wind of. But inside, inherently unclassified, was some – not everything we put out – but some. So, we were able to get that information out to the public. It was never gonna be seen, publicly, but we got it out. But on top of that, we somehow got a bunch of footage that our Pentagon didn’t have. Our UAPTF, the Task Force…they didn’t have it. So we were like, kind of astonished. ‘Well, we should make sure they have it, cause we’re about to release it.’ So, luckily we know people, that was the right way to do it, and we said, ‘Hey, this is coming out, we wanna make sure you got it.’ So we tried to do everything in the right way. Maybe that’s what they so quickly validated that this is real military footage, filmed of unidentifieds, included in the investigation into UFOs. Maybe that’s why, because we did it right, and got it to them. So that’s how it went down, for the audience that doesn’t know about this.

    “But there’s more to it. It wasn’t just one ship, the USS Omaha, there was also the USS Russell that we released, not only video, but also a slide that was contained in that briefing. And this one gets everybody hot and bothered because, first of all, it’s green, right?”

    ~~~

    Read – Background: The U.S. Navy filmed “PYRAMID” shaped UFOs

    ~~~
    JC: “[But first], let’s do the slide of the Omaha, This is an actual briefing slide that is unclassified, however it was contained within a classified briefing.”

    ~~~

    ~~~

    JC: “As journalists, George and I were able to obtain this image. This is a UAS: Unmanned Aerial System, some people say.”

    Guts: “Sure. Yep.”

    JC: “Spherical in shape, right? They say it right there. Spherical in shape.”

    GK: “They searched the water for wreckage, the search was ineffective.”

    JC: “One of the people that actually designated, like…what these were, [said]: The only we had that we could classify it as, was unmanned, because it wasn’t, let’s say, big enough as a normal craft, to hold a human. So, it was a UFO. It was unidentified, still is unidentified, but we call it an Unmanned Aerial System. And look, this straight out of a briefing (looking at the slide). And what’s so important to me was that it’s not just like we’re making this up, you know? Other things went in front of our eyes when we were investigating all this stuff. We were exposed to other information, is what I’m trying to say.”

    ~~~

    JC: “Let’s move on to the to the last bit of the USS Russell. USS Russell was another ship that was out during this workup. And USS Russell, it had a slightly different experience than the other ships. Same kind of thing, swarms. But when George and I saw the videos, and we saw what was reported, we’ll talk about the slide and what was reported. But let’s watch the video.”

    ~~~

    Read – Background: The Navy Filmed Pyramid Shaped UFOs

    ~~~

    JC: “They look triangular by angle of observation. However, we were told that it was in things that passed in front of our eyes, that they were pyramid in shape. And so we reported that and we put it out.”

    GK: “Pretty famous now, this is all over the place.”

    Guts: “I’m familiar with with this clip. And, you know, look, at the end of the day, whether it’s a pyramid, or a triangle, or whatever the hell it is, I think what’s lost on people, again, is the fact that that there was a there there to begin with. There was something there.”

    JC: “Let’s describe it. So what you’re referencing is that there’s this big argument about the shape of it, right?”

    Guts: “Sure.”

    JC: “That’s what people are saying. It’s a lens effect. And actually, they went all the way up to Congress. At first, it was the little NVG, Night Vision. It was a PVS-14, is the standard issue since 2001, to our armed services. So the guy’s got this, and he’s filming through it with a camera. So first, they said this one had a triangle aperture, right? And that’s what’s causing this effect, this distortion, right? And then, I was like, looking at it because I got one. And I’m like, ‘Nah, man. Nah.’ They’d have to like, consciously put tape on it. So then, they kind of backtracked, moved the goalposts. Now it’s the camera that’s doing this. We started asking people involved, and the funniest thing someone said to us was, ‘Look, if it was pyramid in shape, it would still look like a pyramid, even if there was an aperture issue.’ Which I thought was hilarious, right? That’s true. But I’m not staking my claim…”

    GK: “We don’t have a dog in this fight. We don’t care if it looks like a pyramid. Is it an unknown craft? That’s what we wanted to know. And yeah, it is.”

    JC: “Yeah!”

    Guts: “What matters is there was something there that wasn’t supposed to be, that we don’t know what it was.”

    [the_ad_placement]

    JC: “Seven hundred feet, as you’ve said to me a bunch, over the last few years.”

    GK: “There’s a rangefinder, it was seven hundred feet above the deck.”

    JC: “And there were three of them. And so, we don’t have all the videos from that, you know, but there were three of them, close proximity to one another, seven hundred feet off of the tail of it, right? And it would follow the ship, and at one point, the ship stopped, and the object stopped.”

    ~~~

    GK: “Am I correct in saying that both of you have spoken with crew members who were there?”

    JC: “Oh, yeah. People…”

    Guts: “Yes.”

    GK: “So I don’t know…where we. You have, John?”

    Guts: “Yeah. Yeah, I’m aware of people that were on those ships at that time.”

    JC: “And I can say I’ve filmed and recorded with people that were not only there at that time, but had the responsibilities and duties that would directly give me information about how these things were dealt with. And I think, really importantly…so let’s just get to the the basic understanding: I don’t care if these things are shaped like Mickey Mouse. They’re craft of unknown origin, flying with impunity, moving along, intelligently controlled. We don’t know whose they are, we don’t know where they came from, where they launched, where they landed. And we took action against them from the USS Russell, in three different ways: anti-drone technology. And all of which were ineffective. Now, when you talk about witnesses, and we’ve both talked with people involved. And again, I have filmed and recording with, you know, they don’t want it out, they’re active duty, but they gave me a good, by letting me record with them. But I’ll tell you this… Do you (Guts) want to talk about this? We both…one of the witnesses told us, as they were watching it. What did these things off the USS Russell…what did they do?”

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Guts: “One eyewitness account in particular that was…it was pretty extraordinary. First thing they noticed was these lights, kind of up in the sky. What distinguished these lights from any others is kind of the follow-on maneuvers that it executed.”

    JC: “On the USS Russell.”

    Guts: “On the USS Russell.”

    JC: “And this is a sailor that we that we both know.”

    Guts: “Yes. Yeah.”

    JC: “And that was there, and saw it.

    Guts: “Yeah, they were up topside, you know, outside of the ship, as opposed to some of the other folks who we’ve talked to who are kind of fighting from the inside of the ship, who can’t corroborate what they see on their screens, visually, with their eyeballs, right?”

    JC: “That would be like, it had a SPY-1.

    Guts: “Yeah.”

    JC: “The USS Russell had a SPY-1.”

    Guts: “Sure.”

    JC: “The SPY-1 itself, by the way, has some unique properties. But that SPY-1, they’re inside the ship, so they’re kind of getting that internal data of how they’re moving, the distances, all that stuff, where they’re coming from, but then there’s people topside.”

    Guts: “But then there’s people topside, right? And so this one individual in particular that we’re talking about, what they saw was, again, these lights up in the sky, and all of a sudden, they just dropped down to the horizon level, you know, almost instantaneously, right? Drops down on the horizon, and all of a sudden it starts approaching the ship from the stern, from the rear of the ship. Once these lights come forward, first it goes up the port side of the ship. And it’s funny, to hear them talk about it, it’s almost like they…as this object or light, or whatever it was, was kind of flying around the ship, the sailors on the deck are following it, right? So first they’re on the aft end of the ship, and the object moves forward, so they move forward, right? So now they’re on the port-forward side of the ship. And it’s just floating there, a couple hundred feet in the air. Then it moves to the starboard side, right across, and they scurry across the ship. And they’re kind of, you know, going through wherever they need to go to get to the other side. And they maintain eyes on it, because they’re just shocked at what they’re seeing. And then, probably the most dramatic part of the of the event was…once it moved to the starboard side of the ship, it just shot straight up into the air. And the word that the sailor that we spoke with used was, ‘It just zoomed, it zoomed, it zoomed straight up in the air. And when you ask them, ‘Did you hear anything? Did you see anything, in terms of like, again. exhaust?’”

    JC: “Or a sonic boom.”

    Guts: “Right. Did you hear it? Right, exactly. And of course, the answer is, ‘No’”

    GK: “So, this sounds like a drone I could buy at Walmart then, or something (JC and Guts laugh). Obviously it is not.”

    Guts: “Yeah. Yeah. No, obviously it’s not. And again, if we’re gonna take that sailor’s account at face value, which I do, and again, I know the individual and I trust that what they’re…they’re telling it like it is. They’re telling what they saw, right? It’s dramatic. And no, it’s not a drone from Walmart that you can get, or anywhere else for that matter. That I know of.”

    JC: “Yeah. And this is one of many eyewitness. It’s a little frustrating. I’m saying that what’s missing is these people coming forward and saying, ‘Look, I was part of that, and this is what I encountered.’ It’s just hard to get people to come and do that because of the nature of working in the military. But these accounts…”

    GK: “This whole issue about drones has been used to discredit and debunk many of these incidents and to strip it of its aura of mystery. Can you, without giving away or crossing a line, can you just talk about drones and whether you see them? You’ve served both domestically in the Navy and around the globe? Do people send up drones and take pictures of Navy ships? Do you see adversary drones that are intelligence-gathering operations?”

    Guts: “This is what I’m comfortable saying. What I’ll say is this: The short answer? Yeah. Yeah. We’re out there and we’re as on the front lines as you can get, around the world. And so, do we encounter drones? Yeah, we absolutely do. And it’s only gotten, you know, as drones have proliferated around the world, they’ve become cheaper and easier to get a hold of and operate. Yeah, it’s something that we encounter, you know, pretty regularly. You know, me personally, on deployments around the world, yeah, we’ve come across it. So it’s definitely something that we have to take into account whenever we’re going over the horizon and working around the world.”

    GK: “Well, we’ve read public accounts, media accounts that show that our adversaries are developing drones. We’re seeing, you know, you can’t talk about this, but in the Ukraine, drones have taken a very pivotal role in that conflict that’s going on. So, China, Russia, we’re sure they’re developing some advanced drones. I mean, do you see – I don’t know if you can talk about this – drones of a more sophisticated level that, you know is being flown by some potential adversary?”

    Guts: “Unfortunately, I’m gonna have to politely decline to comment on that. But like I said, you know, in short, they’re something that we have to take into account, that we didn’t really have to take into account, you know, ten, twelve years ago, like we do now. It’s something that we have to consider when we’re going abroad and you know, operating (internationally?).”

    GK: “On the drone question. So, it also depends on where you are. So Jeremy, you’ve got some great information and testimony based on where these…you don’t encounter Kmart drones a hundred miles out to sea.”

    JC: “Yeah, so what we’re gonna do now is kind of bring a new body of evidence and information to people because, for me, it’s like, you know, I’m getting all this information, and it’s starting to really make me understand what’s happening. The argument has never been, by the way, drone. Drone is just a designation of something that doesn’t have an immediate, physical, biological pilot in it. And it’s usually determined by the size of the craft, and by the maneuverability. But again, remember, that drone that we’re looking at is spherical, with no flight control system, so I’m already a little skeptical that this is a Walmart thing.”

    ~~~

    JC: “So what I think now is, with the Paul Hamilton, let’s talk about that ship. It hasn’t gotten a lot of attention. And this was one of the ten ships that was part of this 2019 swarm. And very uniquely, the Paul Hamilton was in closest proximity to a ship called the Bass Strait, which is a cargo ship that’s run by Pacific Basin.”

    ~~~

    JC: “And I wanna start with an image that comes up that the media has said, which is that the case has been solved. So Zack, can we bring up the first image from The New York Post? Their horrible, disingenuous, ridiculous, parroted reporting of untruth, because you’re about to see it.”

    ~~~

    JC: “So if people can see that: Mysterious drone attacks on US warships solved. I don’t agree with that assessment, (Knapp laughs) and let’s get to specifically why. But to tell you what that’s saying. So there was a cargo ship that was right by the Paul Hamilton. And it has been propagated, this mythology, that the these hundred-plus drones, within a hundred-mile radius, were launched from, and landed back to this ship called the Bass Strait. In fact, it’s propagated so much you can even find it on Wikipedia now. It’s already, you know, it’s just…okay, Wikipedia. There we go. Just go ahead and read it, George.”

    GK: “‘Pacific Basin is the owner and operator of Bass Strait, a cargo ship that launched a series of drones that surveilled and harassed United States Navy ships, including the USS Paul Hamilton, in the waters off of Southern California in 2019.’ No equivocation. It is the ship that launched these drones.”

    JC: “Yeah, so let’s get that garbage off the screen because it’s false, okay? So but here’s the deal, man. The reason why you find it trickled down to Wikipedia is because this has been a false narrative that has been propagated by, you know, subpar journalists and subpar journalism sources, and they try to trickle it down all the way. Now, somebody just reads that, they’re like, ‘Oh, great. Case solved.’ So let’s back the fuck up. Okay, Paul Hamilton. So, I think what we should do, is we should…we have two witnesses that were willing to put their voice out there and you can affirm that they are actually…”

    Guts: “Yeah. No, these are guys that I know personally. One of them I work with every day.”

    JC: “Oh, wow! Okay, there we go.”

    Guts: “Guys that I’m very familiar with.”

    JC: “Okay. So…yeah, it’s funny, man, people are happy to share on the level that they can about these experiences. So I’m going to play, I think an audio clip would be good for…”

    GK: “We’re not using the names, though, right?”

    Guts: “No, no,”

    JC: “No way. So this is Paul Hamilton, ten ships, 2019 swarm. Individuals that were there. Two of them. Wanna get their perspective on a few things. So first was, you know, asking: Is this a test? Was this just some U.S. government tasks during workups, right? And we’ll just listen to it and talk about it after?”

    ~Audio Begins~

    JC: “What did you think was going on during this encounter series? Did you think this was a test?”

    Eyewitness #1 (E1): “So like, we didn’t really think anything of it, other than that it was like the people testing us. Like, purposefully sent out drones to go harass us. So, it’s like the most high-end technology, followed us. And then after the first night, that was pretty apparent that it wasn’t. But like, at the same time, it’s like, ‘Hey, you need to track this more closely. You need to follow them and see where they go afterwards.’”

    JC: “Isn’t it typical, though, if that were the scenario, and you were being tested, at some point afterwards, you would be made aware that you were being tested? And whether or not you passed or didn’t pass the test?”

    E1: “Yeah.”

    JC: “And that never happened?”

    E1: “No (laughs), no, because like, it wasn’t a test. Unless there’s like a secret at like the highest level and no one’s told anyone, that wasn’t a test during SWATT. But like, the mindset at the time was test during SWATT, but also looking back, with like, kind of a clear eye, it’s like, that makes no sense to have a test that lasts that long, at night, after a really busy day, when we’re shooting like, live ordnance during the day. It would just get into the safety of like, what we were doing, and it wouldn’t make any sense for them to do that.”

    ~Audio Ends~

    JC: “So, can you explain to us, like, you know, so this is somebody that’s saying…he’s saying it wasn’t a test device, it wasn’t our tech. So explain that.”

    JG: “So, you know, what you hear that individual talking about in the beginning is, you know, at first, that’s kind of the assumption everybody makes, right? Yeah, okay, we’re being tested, you know? They’re sending out drones, the tests are different tactics and procedures to respond to this thing. But then it starts happening night after night. It’s happening at hours that are really, really outside of the hours of testing, if you want to call it that, right? Because you got to remember, these ships are participating in other training events throughout the entire day, okay? And shooting live ordnance, you heard him talk about that. And like I told you before, whenever we shoot live ordnance, that’s a big deal, okay? Certainly, in real-world actions, but also in training, you know? We don’t do that lightly and there’s a lot that goes into that. So, the idea that we would be executing a high-stress, high-level event during the day, and then to be tested with drone swarms in the middle of the night… Because you gotta remember, you got to put yourself in the mindset, in the shoes of these guys back in 2019. This is happening, you know, about 2200 to like, 0300 at night, you know? 10 o’clock at night till about two or three in the morning sometimes, right? And, I mean, is it totally out of the question that we would be tested at that time? No, but when you consider and you heard him…I’m glad you heard him say it: Safety, right? No matter what we’re doing, we’re always gonna operate with a certain level or amount of safety precautions imbued into the training event, so that we don’t do something stupid, or God forbid, get somebody hurt, you know? So you heard him talk about that.

    “You heard him talk about how, okay, night one, okay, it’s probably a test. But then, something that you heard him say was that folks higher up in the chain of command started asking, ‘Hey, start gathering all the data that you can about this and feed it up.’ Okay? And who knows, maybe it was a test of our information-gathering capabilities. But that is not something that would be typically done, right? There’s much more important aspects of our tasks and procedures that need to be tested, not how information flows up and down the chain of command. That’s easy. You can easily put a report together and send it up to whoever it needs to get to.”

    JC: “Without a hundred objects, with no point of departure or landing.”

    Guts: “Exactly. So, night one? Sure, maybe. Night two, three, four, or whatever it is? They realize, okay, this is real and there’s something else going on here. And oh, by the way, again, folks higher in the chain of command are asking for us to stay on this case, you know?”

    JC: “So, to go to your point there, is that, okay, first we ell this was our technology and it was just a test. It started becoming very apparent to everybody on the ships, you know, whoa, this is real, like, we gotta deal with this. This is not just some, you know, even like a black projects test, which, by the way, is not something you do, like, you know, in that training area, around… But I’ve talked to people that have encountered black projects, and there is a process.”

    Guts: “Oh, there’s a whole process. Absolutely. I haven’t had this happen to me, personally, but I know of guys, personally, who have seen stuff they shouldn’t have seen

    JC: “Commander Underwood did and he told me the process.”

    Guts: “There ya go. He has, you know, you come across something that you see, that you’re not supposed to see, well, you’re gonna get a call. Especially as an aviator, you know, as soon as you land on deck and you start doing all the necessary paperwork required for any flight, anyway, you’re also gonna get a call from the appropriate intelligence folks and be like, ‘Hey, sorry, I need you to come by the intel shop and you gotta fill out…’ It’s a huge hassle, right? (laughs) And I can imagine that for someone, you know, a civilian, let’s say, ‘Man, I’d love to see something like that!’ No, not really (laughs). It’s kind of a pain in the ass.”

    GK: “And at the end of that process, do they say, ‘You didn’t see that’?”

    Guts: “At the end of that process, you know, you sign…you agree to whatever paperwork they tell you, that, ‘Hey, you can’t talk about this.’ That didn’t happen with anybody in 2019. Certainly no one that we’ve talked to, and not that I’ve heard of through other channels, either.”

    JC: “And also, the head of the Navy was asked about this and made a statement. And they (media) were like: ‘Have you figured this out? Whose are they?’”

    ~~~

    JC: “It is undetermined. Everybody we know, involved in this [has said], ‘We don’t know whose these were.’ But let’s just start with eliminating…these were not ours. That’s the consensus of everybody. That’s, to the best of our understanding, that’s…despite their capabilities, they weren’t ours.”

    Guts: “Well, it wasn’t a test, as I think is…it certainly wasn’t a test, you know?”

    JC: “So, I wanna play another clip now and this one is really important. We kind of put this forward in one of our first episodes, you know, that these things were coming from the west. And it took me a while to understand it, and you really…this is why I like, go to Guts, ‘Hey, man, does this mean anything?’ He’s like, ‘It means a lot.’ Okay, so let’s hear what he had to say, and then I want to hear John’s reaction.”

    ~Audio Begins~

    JC: “So from what direction was this swarm coming?”

    Eyewitness 1 (E1): “It was actually coming in the west.”

    JC:” It was coming from the west.”

    E1: “Yeah, from the west.”

    JC: “So over water.”

    E1: “Over water, away from land. I mean, like, the only thing we have over there is like, Hawaii, which probably was closest thing west of us.”

    JC: “And when they were departing, what direction were they departing to?”

    E1: “They would depart in different, on different bearings than they came in on.”

    JC: “So normally, always from the west and then departing in a different direction?”

    E1: “Yeah, yeah. Not exclusively, but yeah, pretty constantly, it’d be a different bearing. Which is weird, right? Like, so if you deploy a drone to go check something out, it would come back. So that was like, something significant enough for us to like, report the drone’s going in a different direction than they came.”

    ~Audio Ends~

    JC: “Okay. What is he saying and why is it important?”

    Guts: “So again, you know, the whole fact that these things were coming from the west. When you hear him say, you know, I think the closest thing to the west is Hawaii, right (laughs)? And, you know, Hawaii is, you know, I don’t know how many thousands of nautical miles from the coast of San Diego. There’s nothing out there, there’s just open water to the west, okay? And like they mentioned, if it were a drone, or a typical drone being operated by a typical drone operator, typically, if you’re gonna go check something out…if I’m sitting here with a drone and I got the joystick in my hand, and I’ve got the drone on my lap here, and I’m gonna launch it across the street, I’m gonna go straight there and come straight back, right? It takes battery power to, you know, whenever you have long durations of time of flight. Just the controlling aspect of the drone, you want to maintain eyes on and all the time. I guess you could make the argument that, ‘Well, you know, if you’re really trying to surveil, you kind of don’t want to come in on the same bearing that you’re coming out on.’ But regardless, these things were always coming from the west and then departing into into another direction and there’s nothing out to the west, but ocean.”

    JC: “Yeah. So even if we’re talking off of another ship, let’s be really clear. So what’s happening is, in this 100-mile radius, swarms simultaneously on ten ships. And we’re giving one example of Paul Hamilton where these objects are appearing from the west, where there is no landmass, there’s no ship that’s going to be launching them from the west, and then they’re departing after long periods of durational use, they’re departing in another direction. So this causes a problem of where’s the launch, where’s the land?”

    Guts: “Yeah.”

    ~~~

    On July 27th, 2021, during the 4Bidden Disclosure Conference, Lue Elizondo had this to say about drones. 

    Lue: “Let’s look at the best drone technology we have, and I’m gonna be very careful what I say here, make sure I don’t upset anybody back in DC. But let’s say – here’s our little pen again –  this is a drone. There’s two types of drones, for the most part, and there’s other ones as well. There’s hybrids and [inaudible] and whatnot. But you have those that can take off vertically, kind of like a quadcopter, and they can hover and they can loiter around for a little while. And then you’ve got those that are fixed wing and they can fly long range but they have to fly fast enough to create lift and to continue to move. So think a Predator or something like that. The ones that move fast and fixed wing could fly really far, but they have a very hard time loitering. They have to fly racetracks, they can’t just stop and hover and loiter for twenty, thirty minutes. And just like the quadcopters that can hover, they have a hard time loiter ability because you need fuel and fuel is weight, and weight to a rotary wing vertical lift is the devil. So you want to be as light as possible and that’s why a lot of these little quadcopters are so light.

    “So if you wanted to launch something over a Navy ship that can hover over the flight deck as has been reported through the Omaha and the Kidd incidents, then you’re talking about a drone capability that is probably not a fixed-wing, long-range capability. It means it has to be launched from somewhere near by. Even two, three miles, as far as you can with some of the more, if you will, commercially available, control systems. Even the best military systems you have some much longer capability, but you still have to launch them and you have to recover them, you don’t just let them crash into the ocean because then they can be found, right? So they have to be launched from somewhere and they have to be controlled from somewhere by someone. And there’s an infrastructure, a huge footprint, that is required to do that. You need a trained operator to do it, with enough juice where you can send out a signal to your quadcopter, your quadcopter can react and then enough, if you will, payload on this, so it can send the signal back to the operator. The operator knows where the drone is, it’s looking at pictures and all that stuff, and then be able to fly the drone all the way back.

    “So there’s more practical challenges with trying to create something like that. If you’re talking about a fixed-wing drone, that’s a little easier but it’s got to keep moving, it’s got to be moving fairly fast, and it’s not just going to stop and hover. So, therein lies the problem. If you want a loiter, you’ve got to launch it from relatively nearby. Now, the Navy has sea-domain awareness. They are the best at knowing anything that’s in the ocean. These guys know. That’s how we catch these drug runners coming in on these little tiny submersibles that you can barely see. There’s a reason we catch them. So we know, if there’s, let’s say, a Chinese frigate nearby that’s launching drones, we know that. A lot of these ships have transponders on them, AIS. We know, unless they’re squawking black, meaning they’re not transmitting, then we have other ways to find out who’s in our area and we have very high-fidelity radar systems and we have electro-optical systems. So, it’s unlikely. I’m not saying it’s impossible because the Chinese have harassed us before and vice versa with unmanned, aerial vehicles and aerial systems and by the way, that technology is improving, exponentially, almost every year, so at some point these things may have that capability that we’re seeing, but right now, they don’t, and that’s the problem. The foreign, adversarial technology isn’t where it needs to be for us to see the things that we’re seeing, it’s not there yet. It might be there in ten, fifteen, twenty years, but it’s not there now. And that’s why this is a problem, that’s why we need to have this conversation because if it’s not U.S. technology, and it’s not foreign, adversarial technology then whose technology is it, right? I mean we have to have that conversation. You can’t have an intellectual, a truly, objective conversation about this topic, and not introduce that as potentially, potentially part of the calculus.

    ~~~

    And a few months before that, on May 20th, 2021, Elizondo had this conversation with researcher, Richard Dolan, about the possibility of drones over Navy ships.

    Lue: “When you really look at it, you look at what is required to have something that can hover over the flight of a boat for hours at a time, and not a single one of these have been shot down, not a single one of these have ever been recovered from the ocean, not a single one of them has had a mechanical issue, not a single one has been able to be intercepted.”

    Dolan: “It seems insane.”

    Lue: “And by the way, we have helicopters on these ships and not a single one has been caught by one of our helicopters or aircraft. You know, okaaaay. But you really got to do a lot of mental gymnastics then, to prove to me that that is some sort of drone technology. I’m not saying it’s impossible. What I’m simply saying is you’ve got to build a case then to prove that. Because at this point, that’s a greater feat than saying it’s a UAP. Really. Because at that point, it’s, ‘Okay, well, we’re really talking about something then that, if a foreign adversary has, is really incredible.’”

    ~ ~ ~

    Back to Knapp, Corbell and Guts…

    George Knapp (GK): “The other part would be tracking them. So let me play dumb devil’s advocate. Let’s say you’ve developed a super-duper, double-secret probation drone that can fly hundreds of miles, and you launch it from, say, San Diego, or Catalina and it’s gonna buzz these ships. You should be able to track those things. Those ships should be able to track them.”

    Guts: “Yeah.”

    GK: “Coming there and going back.”

    Guts: “That’s a great point. So even on the systems that they were tracking them on, they always came from the west. So it’s not like at launched from San Diego, did a big circle around, and then came from the west. No. It was always coming from the west, originally. Does that make sense?”

    GK: “Yeah, but there’s no drone that you know of…”

    Guts: “Not that I know of? No, no.”

    GK: “That could have that kind of range or fly from Hawaii from the west.”

    Guts: “No, no.”

    [the_ad]

    Jeremy Corbell (JC): “And the other thing is, we’re hearing from somebody very isolated, who was there from the Paul Hamilton. But those that I’ve spoken with, who were in a position to know this on the Omaha, said, ‘I’m gonna regret saying this to you, Jeremy. But they just seemed to appear. That’s when we started talking about the fact that were going into the water.’ So, the the idea is, if they’re going off radar, off scan volume, and even optically, as I told you, the helo pilots are seeing [them] go into the water. They’re likely coming out of the water, too. So that’s what’s really interesting. This possibility that they’re trans-medium, emerging from the water and descending into the water.”

    GK: “Could there be a submarine out there that’s launching drones, somewhere in the water? And if so, would we able to detect a sub and detect where those drones are coming from?”

    Guts: “Right, umm…”

    GK: “Right, you can’t…”

    Guts: “I think I’m gonna, yeah…I think I won’t be able to…yeah.”

    JC: “But even if you, I mean, I can tell you from public, you know, stuff…that is not a technology that is currently readily available by any nation to be in our waters that I’m aware of, public knowledge, or anybody else that I know, that would know. So this idea that…look, if there was a foreign nation’s submarine within that radius of those hundred mile ships, that were launched, wouldn’t that kind of be big news, don’t ya think?”

    Guts: “Yeah, that’d be a big deal.”

    JC: “Yeah, I think that’d be a big deal. So it’s kind of a ridiculous idea that people…they’ll just throw it out there, like, ‘They were probably launched as swarms by subs.’”

    GK: “We know that that has been thrown out there, that even newspapers have done it. The New York Times. So, in advance of the anticipated Halloween release of this UAP report to Congress, the New York Times does a hit piece. Call it a pre-bunking, where they have these general, generic explanations. Oh yeah, same thing is that New York Post story, we’ve explained this all, it’s no big deal, it’s gonna be drones. And, of course, we don’t know of any drones that fit the bill for this.”

    JC: “And so, I’m unsatisfied, so far, as we’re going through this exercise together. I’m unsatisfied, so far, that we have figured this out. I’m unsatisfied [that] it’s some sort of other nation’s sub. That would be huge news, man, you know, off the coast of California, you know, within that hundred-mile radius, about fifty miles, that circle begins. So let’s kind of keep going down and see if we can figure this out. But the people that are there, it means something when we can hear from them directly. I’m really grateful I can play these. So, I also want, for these witnesses. I think that it’s important that, you know, the question is asked: Can you talk about this? Can you talk to me about this? Because I think it’s important that people understand, they were never asked to not talk about it. So I just want to play this clip.”

    ~Audio Begins~

    JC: “Did anybody ever tell you, before, during or after that: That’s classified, you can’t talk about it?”

    E1: “Nobody explicitly or implicitly said, ‘Never talk about this incident right here.’”

    JC: “Nobody ever had you sign a Page 13, or an NDA, saying this is our own black tech, and we tested it on ourselves, don’t talk about this?”

    E1: “The opposite. No one said anything about it.”

    JC: “No one ever brought up the possibility, ‘Hey, that’s an adversarial drone’?”

    E1: “But like, it’s pretty common, like, if something crazy happened, and we think that an adversary has an upper hand, then I could see them saying that.”

    JC: “But the point is, that’s not what happened.”

    ~Audio Ends~

    JC: “So I think it’s important that we recognize that I’m just talking to an individual in a way that is very…it’s okay to do that. They were never asked not to talk about it. Is that correct?”

    Guts: “Yeah, well, I’m sure, you know, look, people are going to have questions: How are they talking about this without, you know, without catching flack? Because you can talk about it. There’s nothing that they…there’s nothing classified about talking about something that you saw, you know? In this context.”

    GK: “You’re here, as an American citizen. First Amendment rights.”

    Guts: “Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Both myself, and yeah, surely, you know, these guys, yeah, they’re, again…they happen to be there because of the capacity of their job. But we can talk about it because there’s nothing inappropriate that we’re gonna mention.”

    JC: “Most people that have gone on camera with me or done interviews, officially, on record, the reason I can’t put it out is because they’ve asked me not to, because they’re still in their careers. If they’re in real high command, they don’t want it for that reason. If they’ve just starting out in their career, they don’t want it for that reason, a lot of times. So, it’s like, you know, I have to respect that, but at least I’m gathering the information.”

    Guts: “Well, it goes back to stigma, too. Again, it’s not accepted everywhere, in all circles, that you can talk about it. And again, if somebody really wanted to pick a bone with these guys, you know, I’m sure they could. But in terms of, you know, no, there’s nothing that they’re…they’re not breaking any rules, you know, by talking about it.”

    JC: “So, I’m still unsatisfied that these are just a foreign nation’s drones. So we’re gonna continue down this. This one’s really interesting. This is a new witness, also, from Paul Hamilton, that gave us a number of quotes, talking about drones at sea, in general, on that deployment. Let’s talk about that.”

    ~Audio Begins~

    ~~~

    JC: “So, on one of the videos that I released, our government said that this was evidence of a trans-medium vehicle, something going into the water. One of these objects that you were able to see from your ship, it actually went into the water. Did you see that at all?”

    Eyewitness 2 (E2): “I didn’t see anything go into the water like that, if that (video of Omaha sphere possibly going into the water) is actual clear footage from a vessel. At that point, it’s different than what I saw, whenever it goes into the water. But I will say that its movement is exactly why we made the first drone calls and when we were first being dismissed, when we were so adamant that they were drones and how it sort of is flying, and then suddenly stops like that, in a way that even, like a helicopter wouldn’t. And it didn’t seem like it was a very stable hover. And up and down in that same way, and it seemed like it would have that for an (Unintelligible. Maybe, “movement”?) as well. We did have conventional drones flown by adversarial nations and non-adversarial nations, as well, in our vicinity, throughout that deployment. That was why we were initially like, these are not aircraft that we typically deal with or see around here. And we had operated, I can’t tell you, I probably spent four months total at sea in that specific area, and before and after, and hadn’t…I didn’t see anything to that effect, flying with that pattern. And we didn’t see it over the course of the deployment, either, anywhere, so…”

    ~~~Audio Ends~~~

    JC: “So he’s looking at the video from the USS Omaha thermal, and seeing it go into the water. You know, his point was, we saw adversarial, and our own drone technology. This was not that. So what did you get from it?”

    Guts: “Yeah, that’s a big deal. Just what you said. You’ve got all these different data points. Okay, I’ve seen that before, I know what that looks like. I’ve seen this before, I know what that looks like. What we saw in 2019, in the summer, that doesn’t match, you know, these other encounters that we’ve had. Known encounters that we’ve had of, ‘Oh, this is drone from so and so.’ And, you know, or, ‘This is our drone.’ And you hear him talk about the movement, right? You know, even as a helo guy, I can tell you, you know, if we’re flying along, and I want to come to a stop, right, and I can hover, it takes time to execute that maneuver. And even if you try and yank and bank and, you know, come to as quick of a stop as you can, there’s still drift, there’s still momentum on the airframe that that drags you along, and it’s not an instantaneous stop. What he’s talking about what they saw, was. Stable hover, you know, following the ship, what have you, and then coming to a complete stop and maintaining a stable hover. I mean, nothing that we fly does that. So, that’s important to keep in mind.”

    JC: “So drone just means unmanned. I’ve never been one to argue about that term. That’s a false argument. When we first reported it, it just meant it was unmanned. It doesn’t have like a, you know, a mouse in there. You know, it’s unmanned. What he said that was so important to me is that, we see drones, like, that’s something we deal with. It’s something that our military deals with. None of us are saying that’s not. Like, that is a real issue. This is not that. So we’re trying to figure out what this is. And now it gets kind of interesting, because we’re talking about capabilities of these things. This next piece is how they named them, drone classification, right? So I’m asking: How do you name them drones or whatnot? Let’s hear what this individual has to say.”

    ~~~Audio Begins~~~

    JC: “Why do you think there’s this predisposition to refer to them as drones, or call them that?”

    E2: “I mean, based on our understanding, the most reasonable explanation would be some sort of a drone or a UAV. And then you sort of go to the connotation that’s attached with calling them what they actually are, which is an unidentified flying object, a UFO. They are, technically that, but that doesn’t mean that they’re extraterrestrial. Like, that’s the connotation that comes with using that phrase, even though that is the proper phrase for what we saw and what we classified them.”

    ~~~Audio Ends~~~

    JC: “So, he’s talking about classifying these as drones. I have something to add to that, but what would you get from what he just said?”

    Guts: “Again, to me, you know, the subject of stigma is so, unfortunately, you know, I think that’s what he’s talking about there. You know, if you call it a UFO, which is what it is, right? It’s an unidentified flying object. There’s a lot of baggage with that. Hell, even UAP, you know?”

    JC: “Because it makes people automatically think it’s extraterrestrial or something.”

    Guts: “Yeah. Right, right.”

    JC: “No one’s saying that.”

    Guts: “No one’s saying that.”

    JC: “But there’s some sort of stigma.”

    Guts: “Absolutely. And, again, to distinguish between, you know, like we talked about before, how, you know, a helo would have to kind of come to a slow stop. And even a drone. It’s not completely instantaneous, you know, coming to a complete stop, like they’re talking about, so. No, it’s just, they’re calling it that because that’s kind of the baseline, you know…”

    GK: “You gotta call it something.”

    Guts: “You gotta call it something, right? And so it’s a baseline go to, to be able to say, ‘Well, I’ll just call it a drone,’ you know, and move on.”

    GK: “And in response to our reports, we’ve seen some other fairly lazy media reports that come out and say, ‘Well, look, here’s the documents, they call them UAVs, they’re drones!’ It’s because you gotta call them something.”

    Guts: “You gotta call them something. Just because they’re calling it that, does not mean that that’s what they were.”

    ~~~

    JC: “Since I’ve spoken to one of the individuals whose job it was to create the designation that we’re seeing here today, which is UAS, Unmanned Aerial System. And I asked, I said, ‘How do you feel about that designation that you made?’ And this individual said to me, ‘That was my only choice. We need to call them something, and I was told by my command to find what is the current description of what we’re calling an unmanned aerial system.’ I said, ‘Are you are you significantly happy that that was a good determination for what you saw?’ [He said], ‘Absolutely not.’ So it’s just, yeah, you gotta call them something.”

    Guts: “It’s a default. You gotta call it something. You can’t write, ‘blank.’ You can’t write, ‘UFO.’ You gotta call it something.”

    JC: “Maybe they’ll start calling them UAPs now, I don’t know. So I just wanted to go into why these terms become caught on to, to propagate, when maybe they shouldn’t. Okay, the next one that I wanna go to is, you know, I’m very curious in this conversation about, is this what you consider a conventional propulsion system, right?. So let’s see what they have to say.”

    ~~~Audio Begins~~~

    JC: “Can you tell me a little bit why this doesn’t fit with a conventional drone?

    E2: “We were always trying to listen, and we couldn’t really hear anything, which is also different from what we’ve experienced with drones that are in close, as these appeared to be. You would hear something, a lot of the times.”

    JC: “Like you would hear rotors, whirling of blades, something like that? Conventional propulsion.”

    E2: “Correct. For like, more of a conventional drone, a national (?) drone. It would still have like, a low hum of an aircraft flying, which you would hear.”

    JC: “And you don’t recall hearing that from these?

    E2: “No.”

    JC: “What else, in general, just doesn’t add up with the conventional drone idea?”

    E2: “Just in general, we were a good amount off of land, and I’m not sure if I can disclose exactly how far away we were. But it was not a range that a conventional drone should ever be able to traverse, especially for the amount of time that we were seeing these. Nothing we know of can stay out here for that long. The amount of time that we were seeing them was well beyond…I mean, if they flew out there, they would probably need to fly back. So I know that it wasn’t a civilian…it absolutely wasn’t civilian, because there’s nothing available or even that you could modify to do what we saw.”

    ~~~Audio Ends~~~

    JC: “So he’s having problems with just like, the drone classification, because by the proximity to this individual and the people that he was with  – and they’ve had a lot of these experiences, as you’ve heard – they didn’t have the typical sound that you would hear from any of these. And that’s one aspect. And then he’s talking about durational flight, right?”

    Guts: “Yeah, it’s a big deal. You know, even on the deck of a ship, you know, you’ve got the wind noise and the waves crashing against the hull and all this and that, from personal experience. I can tell you, you can still hear the whirring of blades or, you know, like he talked about the hum of a drone. You can still hear that cut through the din of all the other noise. That’s one aspect that’s important to keep in mind. They didn’t hear any of that, okay? And, something that’s not mentioned in that clip that I know, guys that I’ve talked to have said, ‘These things got so close to the deck of the ship or to the ship’s superstructure, I could have taken a softball and chucked it out and hit it.’ So that’s close, okay? If something was that close, you would hear it, number one. Number two, just the distance, the sheer distance that these things were being observed out at sea. You know, again. Hell, let’s call it even thirty miles, you know? If a ship is out to sea at thirty miles, that means this thing, at a minimum, had to have flown sixty miles to get there and back to wherever it was coming from, right? Because, like we talked about before, I think we’ve established pretty clearly, it was not coming from the Bass Strait. But again, noiseless and the distances that we were seeing them, or that they were seeing them, encountering them out at sea”.

    JC: “So we have noiseless, we have instantaneous motion.”

    Guts: “Yeah.”

    JC: “We have the idea that they can somehow become trans-medium. All of these things are adding up to like, I’m not…”

    GK: “They’re not trackable, too. They appear, they disappear. You didn’t track them coming in.”

    JC: “Low observability.”

    Guts: “Low observability.”

    GK: “You didn’t see where they went or where they came from.”

    Guts: “Right, right.”

    JC: “Okay, so I’m starting not to believe bad magazines like the New York Post, right? I’m starting to find that the case is not solved yet. Let’s continue (laughs). So this is cool. Another aspect that didn’t kind of add up for me…because everything takes power out there. Wow, I’ve started to hear this a bunch. This individual was witness to what was a spotlight so let’s listen to what they have.”

    ~~~Audio Begins~~~

    JC: “Tell me about the spotlight. I’ve got a lot of reports about this, that were happening at that time.”

    Eyewitness 2 (E2): “At one point, one of them shined a spotlight on us, and just generally knowing the strength of the spotlights, I don’t think it could have reached more than, I don’t even know, maybe like a mile, which is very close for something like that to be. With the amount of illumination that we saw, it did seem like they were close. It must have been within that range.”

    JC: “The spotlight Do you remember what color it was?”

    E2: “White.”

    JC: “Did the brightness or the strength of the spotlight surprise you at all?”

    E2: “It did, yeah.”

    JC: “And why is that?”

    E2: “It was just, it was very bright and it was completely unexpected. And this was maybe the third night that we had been seeing these aircraft, whatever they were. And that was not something we had previously experienced.”

    JC: “Was this an intermittent thing, did it strobe, was it steady, about for how long?

    E2: “It was probably a two-second illumination. It was pretty bright, because on the bridge of a ship, we keep it completely dark so that we can see any light, anything possible at night. It went from pitch black, to very illuminated, very quickly.”

    JC: “Interesting.”

    E2: “Yeah, so that was a bit jarring, shocking. I’m not sure if that…it should have been longer, if that’s been reported elsewhere. But that definitely happened at least once on my watch and was something we saw.”

    ~~~End Audio~~~

    JC: “So some of these swarms, some of the these individual objects would just light up the ship like a spotlight. And that’s something that we continue to hear.”

    GK: “Why does that stand out to you?

    Guts: “Well, so, look… Sure, conventional, typical, you know, commercial, off-the-shelf drones, I’m sure they’ve got the capability to have lights on them or whatever, okay? But you got to think of it in the context of this description: A spotlight that he says, you know, it’s pitch black outside, and all of a sudden…in speaking to some of these guys myself, you know, you hear them talk about it, and it’s like, ‘I mean, dude, it was bright as day.’”

    JC: “He was surprised by how bright…”

    Guts: “Surprised at how bright it was, okay? And then you talk about the duration, you know, because at least two seconds. And again, for someone who’s maybe not familiar, they go, ‘Oh, well it sounds like a flash,’ right? Like the flash of a camera or something. Well, no, the flash of a camera is, I mean, almost instantaneous, right? Shuttering on and off. A two-second illumination for that large of a light, illuminating that size of ship, as bright as they said it was, that’s just so not typical of something that we would encounter, regardless of drones in the area. I mean, for your ship to be illuminated like that…I don’t know, a flare of some sort would have to be used. But even that’s like, you know.”

    JC: “We keep hearing this. It’s like people will hold their hands out in front of their face and not be able to see their hands. It’s so bright. So whatever this is, has high power and it’s not being, it’s not being, umm. It’s brazen!”

    Guts: “Yeah. It’s brazen, and the other thing you gotta remember, it takes energy to be able to produce that strength of light, right? So now we’re talking about a drone that can fly tens of miles out to sea, on its own, stay on duration for hours at a time. It’s noiseless, okay? It’s performing maneuvers that are just, you know, almost unbelievable. And now it’s got a spotlight, so it’s got even more energy now to be able to produce a spotlight for, you know, for two, three seconds to illuminate an entire Navy warship like that? It’s really not adding up to what people would think.”

    GK: “It would be incredibly disconcerting that these are unknown craft, small, maneuverable, they can come in and out of the water, and then it’s messing with you. It lights up the whole bridge of the ship., That’s scary. But you’ve heard other incidents like this.”

    Guts: “Oh, no. Yeah. And it’s not the first time that an object has illuminated a Navy…in fact, on another deployment, somewhere in the world, this time on a much bigger ship, an LHD (Landing Helicopter Dock), which for someone who doesn’t know, it’s kind of like a…when you look at it, it looks like an aircraft carrier, but it’s not as big. But it’s a kind of a mini-aircraft carrier. Big, big ship, though, okay?”

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Guts: “And no, some sailors that I’ve spoken to, personally, they talk about being out on deployment, in the middle of the night, they’re standing bridge watch. And all of a sudden, you know, on the horizon, they see a light, kind of flicker on, and all of a sudden, start tracking towards the ship. And then as soon as they lose sight of the object over the ship, presumably, directly over the head of the ship, all of sudden, it casts this light, that again, is, like Jeremy mentioned, is so bright, and so blinding that they’re disoriented within the bridge of the ship. Because again, it’s at night, it’s pitch black outside. We keep the ship bridge dark at night on purpose to preserve your night vision, right? And then a huge spotlight that just illuminates everything, whereas if it were daytime. And this particular case, it wasn’t two seconds. It was enough time for the sailor to, you know, they talked about being so disoriented that they’re kind of putting their hands up. That’s what she talks about. She goes, ‘My hands were in front of my face and I couldn’t see. It was so bright, I couldn’t see my own hands in front of my own face.’ And they talked about being so disorientated, they’re kind of like getting their bearings and putting their hands up on the consoles to kind of brace themselves, you know, in the bridge of the ship. And then, (snaps his finger) boom, it just shuts off like that.

    JC: “The object came in and…she was so great about it, she’s like it, ‘It left at a different speed in which it came in.’ Because what happened was, it hovered, shot the light, and then (snaps fingers), zoom, gone. It’s just interesting.”

    Guts: “Again, it just speaks to the unconventional nature of this encounter and others that we’ve had.”

    GK: “Hopefully I’ll get one of those next Christmas, Jeremy, I can get one of those drones. These are super-duper drones (JC and Guts laugh).”

    [the_ad]

    JC: “It’s so hilarious that people keep trying to dismiss it that way. And remember, you said small a second ago. Remember, we know the size. I mean, these were significant, physical objects. I’d say ten to fourteen (feet) is the best estimate from each person with the data. We might even know a little bit more about the Russell soon. So, no matter what the shape, or what these vehicles were, they were substantial. But we really got into, right now, what people are saying, is that the ship called the Bass Strait launched, you know, these objects, these units, okay? And that’s been now propagated, and it is 100% false and I want to hear from somebody who has direct knowledge of this. And that’s why this is the next little bit of audio. One of the duties of this person was to monitor the Bass Strait in real time. And let’s see what this person has to say.”

    ~~~Audio Begins~~~

    JC: “I want to talk about origin. There’s been a lot of talk that these objects,, if not launched from land, that they were launched from a merchant vessel. So the Bass Strait is…a lot of people are trying to pin this on the Bass Strait. Can you tell me a little bit about that, about origin, and what you know about the Bass Strait?”

    Eyewitness 2 (E2): “This was the closest that we ever came, on our ship, to figuring a possible origin outside of coming from land somehow. Like you said, traversing those thirty to fifty miles that we were from the nearest islands. So, at one point, we did see what look like multiple-air contacts around a merchant ship that was operating in our vicinity of our strike group. And it was a foreign-flagged merchant ship and we reached out to them. They denied. They weren’t a vessel of interest that we had been worried about or anything. But, I think it was like five to ten of the aircraft circling around it and we never saw it actually land on this vessel.”

    JC: “Was it your impression that the contacts did not belong to the merchant vessel? And can you verify that you asked the merchant vessel and they denied that they were theirs?”

    E2: “Yeah, I can verify the latter, for sure. And that was also why I sort of skirted around saying many details about that merchant vessel because I’m not sure where the investigation went afterwards. I sort of helped compose the message that we sent off, because I’d seen it and like I said, we didn’t see them land on it. And that was what we really wanted to see. Like, we really wanted to see either a launch or a landing. We didn’t know if possibly this vessel had a foreign nation’s intelligence detachment on board or something like that, doing this. They did deny they were the source and they also never landed or launched them, so. We really wanted to see that because we just wanted an answer because we were tired of it. It was not launching, it was not receiving the drones as much as we wanted it to. We were like, ‘This is the source. This has to be it, we finally figured it out.’ And it seemed like it probably wasn’t, just based on the fact that we never saw them land or take off.’”

    ~~~Audio Ends~~~

    JC: “Why is this important?”

    Guts: “You know, and again, this kind of goes back to the, you know, the warfighter in all of us, you know? Like, you’ve talked about before, you know, you’ve spoken to folks who, you know, they’re not happy with how this unfolded, you know? We’re out there, we’re trying to do our job, and yet we’re getting peppered, almost like we’re in a boxing ring getting jabbed. Getting jabbed, getting jabbed, getting jabbed, and we can’t punch back. And so, finally, like, you hear, and I can commiserate with that feeling of almost, not helplessness, but just frustration that you’ve got a job to do, we’re all trained warfighters to defend the country, but each other and our ship, right? And we’re getting harassed by these damn things. And finally, we see, ‘Oh, okay, aha! There’s the culprit right there, and we’re gonna query the hell out of them and tell them to knock it off or whatever the case is,’ right? And what do you hear that guy say? He goes, ‘So we finally see them there. And we wanted it so bad for it to be the source of our frustrations over these past few nights,’ and not once did they see anything either land or take off from this merchant vessel. So, it just speaks to the…I feel bad a little bit, you know, because I can hear and I can feel and I can commiserate with the frustration expressed.”

    JC: “He wanted an answer.”

    Guts: “He wanted an answer! You know, he wanted an answer, and it’s almost like, you know, you’re harassed by these things for so many nights in a row, and finally, you think you’ve got that answer and then, the carpet’s pulled from underneath you, you know, and it’s not.”

    JC: “So the big thing for me is that people can just make up any shit they want and they can publish it, and it starts to be trickled down as truth through tabloids, all the way to Wikipedia, and it’s bullshit. And it’s direct bullshit. And knowing that, is one thing. You (Knapp) and I will know certain things, but getting somebody who’s there, whose job it was to watch the Bass Strait, make sure it was not the source of these. Now we finally have that person on record, verified, that was his duty, and he, sadly, can’t report to us that this was some sort of adversarial drone being launched off this ship. Which, of course, it wasn’t, with over a hundred, in a hundred-mile radius, right? That never made sense. This excuse, that, case closed, never made sense. But to get it through, you have to hear from people directly there.”

    GK: “We also know that there was further investigation, that the Bass Strait was in port when this was still going on. That it was not responsible for launching what was buzzing around these ships.”

    JC: “So you and I have already reported on that numerous times, and now let’s just give it one more go. Which is that we have direct information and knowledge of who and how the Bass Strait was investigated, after the day of events, and they were determined not to be the place of origin, landing or launch of these hundred-plus units in the hundred-mile radius. So guess what? Case open and now we have to kind of think a little bit further. But just to kind of show that this individual can talk to us about it, I just wanna play one last little quote.”

    ~~~Audio Begins~~~

    JC: “Did anybody ever say to you, ‘Don’t talk about this. This is a black project, we’re testing our own technology. We don’t want people to know about it. Don’t talk about it’?”

    E2: “No, I’ve never been spoken to, really, about the event, until now.:

    JC: “No one ever had you sign an NDA or a Page 13? No one ever gave you a verbal order, direct or indirect, or otherwise that you can’t talk about it. Is that correct?”

    E2: “Correct.”

    ~~~Audio Ends~~~

    JC: “So why are we doing that? Just to make sure everybody understands, this is not like some off-the-record kind of, like, you know, he can talk to me, this is absolutely fine. But it’s so much clearer that I’m really grateful that some people are letting us, you know, share this with the public and whatnot. So, George and Guts, is this case closed, have we figured this out?”

    Guts: “No, in my opinion, absolutely not.”

    JC: “Right, right.”

    GK: “No, we don’t know all the central questions: Whose they were, who was operating them, where they came from, where they went to, what their total capabilities are? These are not any kind of drones or AAVs or UASs that we are aware of, that our military’s aware of, so all the big questions about them are still unanswered. It is not a case closed, it is not a case explained, it is an ongoing mystery.”

    JC: “So the great UFO swarms of 2019 still need to be investigated. No answers have really been given, in a way. Now the thing that really takes it and elevates it for me is the performance. When you talk with the people that were there, you know, regardless of shape, we’ll get down to the nitty gritty of that maybe when there’s more information that comes out. Although, the idea of it, is that these had performance capability that I hope, I wish, that we had as a country, but this is not a performance capability that anybody has ever seen before and this is what really makes it interesting to me. A mystery.”

    GK: “2019 was a big year for a variety of reasons. We haven’t even talked about what started us down this road, is that, on the East Coast. So, Oceania, this gigantic Naval Air Station. I reported in 2018, I had been hearing from Naval aviators and sources that they weren’t flying out of Oceania into the w-72, which is the training area in the ocean. And every single day they were seeing these unknowns, and it was a legitimate security issue, aviation-safety issue, because they’re flying along and there they are. And the Navy, the UAP Task Force, what became the UAP Task Force, is trying to encourage these aviators to go ahead and report it. And I know, when I said it in 2018, I don’t think anybody believed me, that they were seeing them every day, but it was true, and it came out later.”

    JC: “Right, it sounded like too much, but then you turned out to be correctly reporting the information.”

    GK: “So in 2019, at the urging of some Navy officials who were working on the UFO investigation, UAP investigation, some aviators finally went along with the program and took some pictures. They had a cell phone and they took some pictures. And on one flight, this one crew captured images of three different objects. And they don’t look like the Starship Enterprise. They’re odd looking. One of them, the Navy called it ‘The Acorn.’ Other people, after I put the image out, they tried to call it a Batman balloon, It was not a balloon. It was not a balloon, And they call it The Acorn.”

     

    ~~~

    GK: “Then there was one that just looked like a sphere.”

     

    ~~~

    GK: “And then the third one that was labeled ‘Metallic Blimp with Payload.’”

     

    ~~~

    GK: “And again, they didn’t have amazing characteristics like the ones on the West Coast, but they would sit there for days at a time, right off the coast, obviously doing some kind of surveillance of the training exercises and the base itself. And it was disconcerting to the Navy that they would sit there. They could sit there for days at a time, at 30,000 feet in 120-knot winds, and not move!”

    JC: “That’s what something that Lieutenant Ryan Graves has brought up and other people that actually have dealt with this issue is, the durational capability is astonishing. Look, this is somebody’s technology, and I’m certainly not pretending to know. I don’t know if these UFOs are from another world, another planet, extraterrestrial. I’ve never said that. I don’t know.

    GK: “I got these images, by the way, at a briefing, two months later. And I sat on them because I didn’t think I was authorized to do it. And then people started talking about it in public, the Batman balloon, and I figured, well, I went back to the sources [to] see if I could make it public and did. And, you know, that was sort of our first foray into what became a heck of a year reporting because that led then to the West Coast videos and images that we got. And at the same time, East Coast, West Coast, far, far away, at the same general timeframe, in that same year, there was another incident that you guys know pretty well.”

    JC: “Yeah, let’s talk about that. Right before we hit that, I just want to say now, so that people are aware that this will be coming out with us: There were other swarm events of UAPs, whatever you want to call them, UFOs, that happened also on the East Coast and also around the world, other seas. This is something that I have direct knowledge of and we’re going to break that story. We just want people to grasp this 2019. Hey, don’t just, you know, believe these tabloids stuff, get in there a little bit, here’s more information. There’s a lot more to this story and this type of event series. But I like where you’re going with this conversation.”

    GK: “This is a really disturbing incident that we got ahold [of] before anybody knew about it and it was reported, and then just dropped, and ignored. It’s in Guam.”

    JC: “That is true. And I found out that my buddy over here (Guts), was there. So I think that you’re probably the best person to speak about what we’re talking about.”

    Guts: “Yeah, so you had reached out to me about an incident that you’d become aware of , and yeah…”

    JC: “You see how he’s already…he doesn’t proactively tell me, ‘Hey, man, I heard about UFOs.’ It’s like, I have to find out the story, and then I’d be like, ‘Hey, man, can you tell me, did anything like this happen?’”

    Guts: “Yeah, so in terms of stuff that I’ve seen, and people like to ask me all time, ‘Have you seen anything?’”

    JC: “Yeah, that’s what I want to know. Have you [seen] anything?”

    Guts: “Let me start off by saying this: Yeah, sure, there have been things that I’ve seen flying, certainly at night you know, on NVDs, on Night-Vision Goggles, that, you know, lights that you see that are kind of weird and unexplainable, but nothing that I would consider the mothership, you know? Certainly nothing like you’ve heard.”

    JC: “Just things you can’t explain.”

    Guts: “Yeah, just things you can’t explain that definitely make you scratch your head, but then you’ve got a mission to do and you go and do the mission. Unfortunately, you don’t have a whole lot of time to investigate, and we’re not UFO hunters, as much as we might want to be.”

    JC: “You’re not, maybe I am (JC & Guts laugh)! Come on, man!”

    Guts “So we’re out there, I’m out there in Guam, [and] there’s a Navy squadron stationed out there on an Air Force base, and we had become aware of an incident that…or incidents, I should say, that had occurred over a span of a few nights, over a particularly sensitive area on Guam.”

    JC: “Why is it sensitive?”

    Guts: “Well, out on Guam, they’ve got a – and this is public knowledge. I’m not disclosing anything here – there’s what’s called a THAAD missile battery out there. I think it’s Terminal High Altitude Air (It’s Area. ~Joe) Defense system, I think is what it is.”

    ~~~

    Guts: “I think the Air Force and the Army, it’a an Army/Air Force, jointly run…”

    GK: “Anti-missile technology?”

    Guts: “Yeah, exactly. So it’s defense capabilities, right? And I think that’s all I’m comfortable to say beyond that. But nonetheless, it’s a defense system that we have. Guam, in and of itself, has been a strategic military location going back to World War Two. So there’s a THAAD missile battery out there, missile-defense site out there. Well, in early 2019, our squadron was approached by the Air Force because what had been told to us was that there had been these, I guess you call them incursions, of lights, over the THAAD site, okay? And what really kind of struck all of us in the squadron, you know…because we hear about this thing, lights, and everybody right away starts talking, ‘What the hell, what do they want us to do here? What are they talking about?’ Well, what was interesting, [and] what we would talk about in the wardroom was, again, the witness descriptions of these particular lights, okay? And what they were seeing was…the guys that are standing guard duty out there, were seeing, first what started as a light that just all of a sudden appears on the horizon, okay? They described it as coming in at treetop level. And all of a sudden, it starts approaching their position, okay? Again, coming from over water, because, you know, Guam’s an island, surrounded by water. So really, any direction that it’s coming from is coming from over water. But in the particular direction it was coming from, yeah, it’s coming from over water. Treetop level, and it’s approaching their position. And just as they’re starting to get on the radio to kind of start communicating with one another about, ‘Hey, do you see this light? Where’s it going? We need to figure this out.’ It blinks out. Well, it blinks out and then about two, three seconds later, it all of a sudden, pops up (snaps his fingers) over here. You know, ninety degrees offset from the original direction. So if you can imagine a light seen at your 12 o’clock position, it blinks out, and then a few seconds later, it pops up at your nine o’clock position. Is it the same light? Is it a different light? How did it move from here to there so quickly?”

    JC: “This troubling because this is a very restricted area…”

    Guts: “Oh, this is a very sensitive…100%, a restricted airspace. Even us as the helicopter squadron stationed on Guam, there’s what’s known as a TFR: a Temporary Flight Restriction. Well it’s not temporary, it’s always out there. It’s a constantly-active TFR, where you are not allowed to fly within a certain radius of this area. Mainly for the emissions that are getting radiated out of this site. It can mess with your electronics, it can mess with…at least, certainly, our systems in the helicopter.”

    JC: “So like, if somebody had set-up, like a, you know, a commercial drone to do surveys, just the energy output of this area would would mess with those, likely?”

    Guts: “Presumably. I mean, that was the reason why we were never allowed to fly in and out of there. And also, you know, you can never determine when a missile would be shot off, and so, God forbid, you don’t want to be in the fire zone of this thing, in case you’re flying through. So we always had to skirt around this thing and fly around it, We always knew where it was and we always made sure to stay outside of this.”

    JC: “Okay, so this is a big deal. There’s something being flown in this restricted airspace.”

    Guts:: “Yeah, it’s a big deal.”

    JC: “And it’s weird because you’ll see a light, and then immediately, at a 90-degree…”

    Guts: “Well, so what ended up happening over a couple nights in early 2019 was…these guys were essentially involved in a cat and mouse chase with these lights, okay? And the guys on the ground, over the THAAD site. It’s funny, you know, similar to 2019 (West Coast ~Joe), they’re getting harassed by this thing. They can’t figure out where it’s coming from, they can’t figure out where it’s going. So they enlisted our help in trying to figure out what these things were. The Air Force didn’t have any rotary-wing assets out there to be able to…they didn’t have any helicopters out there to be able to chase these things, but they knew we were out there. And so they said, ‘Hey, Navy, can you guys help us out here? We want you guys to…’ What we ended up doing was, after three or four nights of harassment, they finally got fed up and said, ‘You know, we need you  guys to help us out.’ What they asked us to do was stand up what’s called an alert, right? So, we’re at the end of our flight day, whatever it happens to be, we had a crew, specifically designated every night, to stand this alert, where, if we got a call, they would want us to launch and try and find these things, right? And just essentially observe and report. Really, their desire would be to eventually knock it down, if we could, but we didn’t have any of that sort of technology on the helicopter at the time. And so, that’s really what it was. It was stand up an alert, if we get the call, go and see what you can find out.

    “And sure enough, there were a couple times that we were given the call. And in fact, there was one night where me and my crew and the other helicopter that we were flying with, we were doing training out in the southern end of the island, and it’s the end of a long night and it’s about ten or eleven o’clock at night. We’re heading back to the base on the north end of the island, which is next to the THAAD site where these incursions had been happening. And it just so happened that we were out there at the same time that they got one of these calls. They go, ‘Hey, they’re back. The lights are back.’ [We say], ‘Okay, what do you want us to do?’ [They responded], ‘Well, just, you know, they’re over here and we want you to go check it out.’ But again, all the while, maintaining…we’re staying clear of that radius, of that TFR that’s always out there. And I wish I had more of a dramatic account to talk about, but long story short, we go up there to try and find these things, and we couldn’t see them. The guys on the ground insisted that, ‘Hey, they’re right over here. Okay, now they’re over here.’ Again, this cat and mouse game going back and forth. Well, we never saw anything, we never saw anything with our eyeballs, we never saw anything on our night vision goggles. We never saw anything on our FLIR, that we have on the helicopter, Forward-Looking Infrared. We never saw anything.”

    JC: “You should have been able to see these objects?”

    GK: “On sensor systems.”

    Guts: “On some thing, if you were to… Again, the guys on the ground were so emphatic that they were seeing these things, you would think that we should have been able to see something, but we never could. That flight was not the only flight where we launched on these things. There were other crews, other nights that got launched. And again, it was always in the middle of the night. The earliest it ever happened was maybe ten, eleven o’clock at night. but typically it was around one, two, three in the morning. So…yeah, we had other crews get called up and get the call to launch. They would fly out there, chase this thing around, or try to, anyway, but we never saw anything.”

    GK: “Around the world, as I’ve reported, there have been instances of UFOs that have been over missile sites, including nuclear missile sites, American, Russian. And they’ve interfered with the launch-control systems. There have been dramatic incidents where it’s direct interference.”

    ~~~

    [the_ad_placement]

    GK: “Is there anything like that that happened with this THAAD system, or could you even say?”

    Guts: “Not that I’m aware. But even if I was aware, I don’t think I would be comfortable talking about that. But not that I’m aware.”

    GK: “But the fact that whatever this unknown surveillance system, if that’s what it was, was taking such an interest in that facility? It’s a critical…”

    Guts: “Yeah, because there’s, you know, if you look at Guam, there’s multiple bases throughout the island, right?. You got an Air Force Base to the north end where we flew out of, there’s a Navy base in the south. In fact, there’s even a submarine base on the southern end of the island that subs go in and out of. So, there’s multiple…I mean, there’s other high-sensitive units and platforms in and around…”

    GK: “But it was all there.”

    Guts: “But it was always, all there.”

    ~~~

    GK: “Again, just to characterize it: Guam is such a critical, national security facility but it’s like the frontier, it’s like Fort Apache. You’re the first line of defense if bad actors from that region of the world fire something this way.”

    Guts: “Yeah, absolutely.”

    JC: “I think we’re dealing with a lot of different truths, right? There are incursions of…even just, you know, drones with tape on, you put on some weaponry, and you fly it into a base. That happens all the time. You know, I have individuals that I know, their job is to defend certain bases, from that, when they’re overseas. A buddy of mine, at twenty-three miles away, was able to target in, using an aerostat with a thermal camera. It’s like, basically, a floating platform, weapons platform. And at tweet-three miles away, it was able to disable a drone, instantaneously.”

    Guts: “Wow.”

    JC: “There’s apparently no issue that we have. There’s Return to Sender, which sends the bomb back. So, we are dealing with that. That is something we will increasingly deal with when it comes to our technologies. However, we have to really say that the things we’ve been talking about, they don’t fall within those explanations. In fact, they kind of mimic what has been going on with the UFO phenomenon, you know, since the beginning of our military. This is not a new thing. Pyramids, spheres, cubes and cigars are the common shapes of UFOs, and these have been seen by our military throughout the entire time. And that’s just something you (Knapp) and I know through all of the information that we’ve had. So I just…I think that we have to be very careful to dismiss things because these new techs are coming up and it’s so easy to call it something that’s, you know, it has a certain type of maneuverability as a commonplace thing. So I’m really grateful that we were able to kind of, in my eyes, unsolved the case. It was bothering me (laughs).”

    GK: “Let me ask…this is like, call this weapons porn. But I had a question about, you know, me as a civilian, I’m thinking: They’re flying over our ships, over our bases, shoot those damn things down. And I was thinking about this Navy-weapons system, I’ve seen video on YouTube. It’s almost like a super Gatling gun, that is an anti-aircraft system. I don’t know what it’s called.”

    https://youtu.be/dKrpEfNaQO8

    ~~~

    JC: “High-energy beam weaponry.”

    GK: “Well, I was thinking of the guns that shoot like a thousand bullets in a minute that would just, basically, knock down a missile.”

    Guts: “Okay. CIWS, a close-in weapon system. So basically, it looks like an R2-D2-type thing on it, yeah.”

    GK: “So that could clearly take one of these things down (Guts laughs), shouldn’t it?”

    Guts: “Yeah. Again, look, I’m not a CIWS expert, I’m not a Surface-Warfare Officer. I’m sure we could easily find someone to talk on that. But, presumably, yeah, I mean, in theory, yeah, you got something that’s flying around your airspace and you don’t want it to, there are ways to take those things down.”

    GK: “Just thinking, at some level, there are investigations into this UAP mystery, we know, and some of them are sincere and people are there who want to get to the bottom of it. And some that just sort of wanna cover it over and wallpaper it, and make it go away, I think. But, you gotta think that there’s people in the Navy, and maybe the Air Force, that are sitting around thinking, ‘These damn things keep flying over our bases, we sure would like to shoot one of those down and see what the hell it is. Don’t to think?”

    Guts: “My opinion? Yeah, it’s frustrating. You know, especially again, with that warfighter mentality, you know, you want to be able to punch back. You know, if you’re getting just peppered in the ring and not able to throw a counter punch, it’s frustrating.”

    GK: “And then you gotta worry, well, do we set off an international incident, or more importantly, an interplanetary incident? We shot down Meep Thorp from Krypton or something like that (Guts laughs).”

    JC: “I wanted just to, also, thank you for talking with us, and I just want to kind of hit the nail on the head here, which is that: I mean, you’re my friend and I like calling you and telling you some of the stuff that I’m learning and passing it by you, and it’s exciting. I appreciate that part of our friendship.

    Guts: “Sure.”

    JC: “I do, you know, have concerns, though. I mean, you know…or I did for you. Like, you’re an active commander in the Navy and there’s stigma associated with talking about this. And I know we’re just talking right now, you know, everything we’re seeing is personal opinion, right, between us. But do you have any kind of concern that that stigma would affect you or that there’d be any reprisals because you’re talking about this with us? I mean, it’s a hot topic right now, within our Department of Defense, is UFOs, UAPs. Just as an individual, you’re talking with us, but do you have any concern?”

    Guts: “You’re talking about blowback or something like?”

    JC: “Yeah, explain it to me.”

    Guts: “No, no, no, no, no. Look, not at all, man.

    JC: “You’re immune to the…”

    Guts: “Yeah, no, well, look, it’s not that…look, it’s like this: The stigma is real. I think conversations like this help to fight and reduce that stigma, which hopefully would encourage folks if they do have some sort of, you know, weird encounter, would report it, right? And bring it up to somebody who can try to get it up the proper chain of command.”

    JC: “Through the proper chain of command and stop calling me (Guts laughs). No, no, I want people to.”

    Guts: “But no…look, I’m not afraid…look, part of my part of my training as a helicopter pilot was also that as an aviation safety officer, okay? And for those of us that have been through that course…there’s a lot of courses in the military that they send you through, you know? Some more robust than others, some more menial than others, and there’s a lot of real dry topics out there. But this one in particular, the aviation-safety-officer course, for me, anyway, it really changed…we’re always safety conscious, you know, we always try and do things as safe as possible. But man, going through that course really kind of drives home the point of aviation safety, looking out for your brothers and sisters in the air, mitigating risks as much as you can, and making sure that at the end of the day, you know, you go out over the horizon [and] you come back with everyone that you left with. And so, that course in particular really, really drove home the point of, hey, when there’s an issue, when there’s an aviation-safety concern that puts your fellow brothers and sisters in harm’s way, you gotta deal with it.

    “And to me, I see this UAP issue in general, in the same light. There is an aviation-safety-flight concern. It should be addressed. We shouldn’t be afraid to talk about it just because it’s a little weird or it’s unknown, or we don’t know what the hell it is.”

    GK: “It’s a national-security issue.”

    Guts: “It’s a national security issue. We shouldn’t let that…because of its inherent and weird nature, we shouldn’t bar that from trying to figure out what this is. Again, if for nothing else, for the safety of those that that we send up…people who put their lives on the line every day to go up and defend the country. So no, in terms of blowback? No, look, I’m not doing this on behalf of the Navy, by any means, but in general, it’s what they trained me to do.”

    GK: “We’re getting close to the end here. I just give props to the U.S. Navy for being so forthright on this, for leading the charge.”

    Guts: “Yeah. yeah.”

    GK: “I mean, you know, you and your colleagues talking about…and I know a career Navy guy (Jay Stratton. ~Joe) who was part of AAWSAP and AATIP and the UAP Task Force. He has led the charge towards changing Navy policy to encourage aviators to come forward. So glad, that somebody is doing it because, you know, as we’ve remarked, some of the other services are not so…are a little more reluctant to get involved.”

    ~~~

    Guts: “I’m proud. I’m proud of the service I’m in, I’m proud of the career I’ve had. I mean, I’m not done. I’m proud I get to do the work I get to do and I’m glad that the Navy is, you know, seems like they’re taking steps to address these issues.”

    JC: “Well, I’m glad that you’re, you know, willing to have the conversation. We made the joke back and forth, it’s like, if we were both into chess and we just wanted to talk about that, that’s no problem. But, for some reason, this this idea of like…UFOs have been with us forever, this idea that unknowns. Why can’t we just talk about it like we would any other subject?”

    Guts: “Right.”

    JC: “So that’s what we’re doing. We’re doing what we’re hoping other people will do.

    Guts: “Yeah.”

    JC: “I do gotta say, though, that, you know, it’s great…so the Navy has really spearheaded coming forward, and we see so much progress. We see this whistleblower legislation that has just, you know, created this opportunity for people to come forward about the UFO topic, who work inside and that kind of thing. So you see all this progress being made, but I was so disappointed when they did the hearings. Just to be clear, we presented, you know, nine pieces of corroborative evidence. They took that hearing and they just showed one piece and tried to pretend that that was the totality of the 2019 events. That was so disingenuous to Congress.”

    GK: “There are those who’d like it to go away, they’d like the media attention to stop, they’d like conversations like this to end. The closer we get to the goodies, the more pushback there’s gonna be. Media and other places.”

    JC: “Yeah. Well, thanks so much, man. It was good to hang out and I’m glad we finally got to have this conversation all together.”

    Guts: “I appreciate it.”

    JC: “Hopefully, it sheds a little light on all this information that we were able to get. And I suspect, there’s going to be more coming from us.”

    Guts: “I think so too.”

    GK: “Oh yeah.”

    ~~~

    © Joe Murgia and www.ufojoe.net, 2018-2023. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Joe Murgia and www.ufojoe.net with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.

     

    🛸 Recommended Intelligence Resource

    As UAP researchers and tech enthusiasts, we’re always seeking tools and resources to enhance our investigations and stay ahead of emerging technologies. Check out this resource that fellow researchers have found valuable.

    → Ecovacs

  • Elizondo TOE Transcript – What I Learned About UFOs Challenged My Understanding Of The Universe And Our Place In It

    Elizondo TOE Transcript – What I Learned About UFOs Challenged My Understanding Of The Universe And Our Place In It

    “Imagine everything you’ve been taught, whether it’s through Sunday school, or through regular, formal education in school, or what our political leaders have told us and yes, even maybe our mothers and fathers around the dinner table have told us or maybe at bedtime, about who we are, right? Our background and our past. What if all of that turned out to be not entirely accurate? In fact, the very history of our species, the meaning what it means to be a human being and our place in this Universe. What if all that is now in question? What if it turns out that a lot of the things that we thought were one way, aren’t. Are we prepared to have that honest question with ourselves? Are we prepared to recognize that we’re not at the top of the food chain, potentially?”

    ~Lue Elizondo 

    ~~~

    If you like what you see on my blog, my Twitter and YouTube Channel and appreciate the time and effort, here’s my Patreon, Pay Pal and Venmo.

    ~~~

    Patreon = https://www.patreon.com/ufojoe

    PayPal – ufojoe11@aol.com

    Venmo – www.venmo.com/u/ufojoe

    ~~~

    Curt Jaimungal (CJ): During this entire interview, it’s best to read between the lines of what Lue is saying, as while ostensibly equivocating, he’s actually saying quite a bit. Breadcrumbs are judiciously dropped. Tweet the hashtag #UFOAmnesty, and I’ll retweet it @TOEwithCurt.

    This is the second interview with Luis Elizondo, and his longest interview ever.

    (The first TOE interview with Lue can be seen here)

    CJ: Luis Elizondo is a former U.S. Army counterintelligence Special Agent, mostly known as the director of the now defunct AATIP, a program initiated by the Defense Intelligence Agency in order to study on unidentified aerial phenomenon, also known as UFOs. Thank you to Shortform for sponsoring this video and click on the timestamp in the description if you’d like to skip this intro.

    For those new to this channel. My name is Curt Jaimungal, and I’m a filmmaker with a background in mathematical physics, dedicated to the explication of what are called theories of everything, from a theoretical physics perspective, but also delineating the possible connection consciousness may have to the fundamental laws, provided these laws exist at all and are knowable to us. Now this UFO phenomenon may seem tangential to the exploring of the variegated landscape of TOEs, that is theories of everything, however, if you watch episodes like the Kevin Knuth episode, you’d see that there’s an intimate connection between some of the deep mysteries of the Universe and this phenomenon. Thus, I’m interested and don’t view this enigma with the stigma that the majority of the scientific community has. If you enjoy witnessing and engaging in real time conversation on the topics of consciousness, psychology, physics, and so on, then do click on the link in the description for the Discord and for the Subreddit. There’s also a link to the Patreon that is patreon.com/curtjaimungol, if you’d like to support this podcast as the sponsors and the patrons are the only reason I’m able to do this full time, and it would be extremely difficult to explore topics like geometric unity or loop quantum gravity or even string theory, which is coming up without the sponsors, without being able to do this full time because of patrons like yourself. Again, that link is patreon.com/curtjaimungal. Thank you, regardless of your decision.

    As for the sponsors, there are three: Algo is an end to end supply chain optimization software company with software that helps business users optimize sales and operations planning to avoid stock outs, reduce returns and inventory write downs, while reducing inventory investment. It’s a supply chain AI that drives smart ROI headed by a bright individual named Amjad Hussain, who has been a huge supporter of the TOE podcast since nearly its inception. In fact, Amjad has a podcast about AI and consciousness which will be linked in the description, so if you’d like to learn more about that, then you can subscribe to his content as doing so supports this content.

    The second sponsor is Brilliant. Brilliant illuminates the soul of math, science and engineering. Through these bite-sized interactive learning experiences with courses that explore the laws that shape our world. The fundamental laws which elevate math and science from something to be feared to this delightful experience of guided discovery. You can even learn group theory, which is one of the most daunting mathematical theories, at least for newcomers, and it’s one of the main pillars behind the standard model that is quantum-field theory. So when you hear that the standard model is predicated on su two across su three across u one, that’s the same as…well those are technically called Li groups. Visit www.brilliant.org/toe for free and get 20% off the annual subscription. I recommend that you don’t stop before for lessons and I think you’ll be greatly surprised that the ease at which you can now grok subjects that you previously had a hugely difficult time understanding.

    The third sponsor is joining us for the first time and that’s Shortform, which is a place that you can go if you don’t have the time or the inclination to read an entire book, yet, let’s say you want to know the gist of it so that you can be conversant as if you’ve read it. And I mean that in the best sense. More on short form later quick

    Note, this podcast is also on iTunes, Spotify, Google podcasts and so on. I hear many comments asking where it is. It’s in the description if you’d like to follow on an alternate audio platform.

    Thank you and enjoy this conversation, one of the most revelatory conversations with Luis Elizondo to date. That’s primarily thanks to you, as this was an AMA, that his questions were gleaned from you. Thank you for watching/listening and thank you Lue for your generosity. Enjoy.

    ~~~

    https://youtu.be/wULw64ZL1Bg

    ~~~

    Luis Elizondo (Lue): Jennifer says hi.

    CJ: Tell Jennifer, like…I know how much my wife contributes to my success. It’s mainly my wife’s success, so I imagine much of your success was your wife’s success.

    Lue: Absolutely correct. Curt, it is, it is. Absolutely, it is, it is. You know, behind…I tell everybody, behind every great man is a greater woman, or a greater person. Obviously, I come from an older generation. But usually, the success of anybody is always dependent upon a close circle of trusted people behind them that are, you know, really helping make things happen. So, you’re absolutely right.

    CJ: Okay. Anything you want me to be aware of before we go live, anything you want to say?

    Lue: You know the rules, man. There are no rules. You know, you can ask me whatever you want.

    CJ: How’s your day going?

    Lue: You know, it’s going considerably well, versus the alternative, right? There’s an old saying: Any day above ground is a good day and I definitely subscribe to that.

    CJ: I know that you’re in such a whirlwind. Primarily, what is it? Interviews, or what?

    Lue: No, I wish. It’s a combination of many things. When I first presented those five slides on how we are having this conversation, legislative engagement, executive engagement, etc, all those take a lot of effort every day, a lot of care and feeding. They’re like children, really, that are constantly wanting attention. And so, you have to feed the beast accordingly, you have to make sure you give just the right amount of information to those specific silos, if you will, or pillars, to keep them happy. But, of course, therein lies part of the challenge, because you can’t give all sides the same information, necessarily, because, obviously, the information you talk to with the executive leadership, sometimes is classified and you can’t give that, necessarily, to the public, but you can still have the same conversation without providing classified information. And so, that’s how you have to thread that needle. And it’s a constant, I guess you could call it, spinning of plates. And hopefully, you don’t drop any of them. And so, it takes a lot of a lot of time, takes a lot of effort and a lot of a lot of coordination.

    For each one of those…this is what I don’t think people understand: When you look at the collective achievements or accomplishments we, collectively, have made, all of us, over the last four years, each one of those bullets is is hundreds, if not sometimes a thousand hours, working behind the scenes to make things happen. It’s a lot, a lot of work. And I still have a day job and I’m still trying to do my best to have this conversation. Every time I have one of these interviews, and you can attest to this, Curt, I don’t get paid for this. Call me a liar but have you ever paid me to do an interview?

    CJ: No.

    Lue: No, right? And I don’t ask for it and I won’t accept it, to do one like this. And so, it takes time away from my other stuff. It’s a lot, a lot of work, but I think it’s worth it, in the end. I think, ultimately, this is a conversation that needs to be had and I think we all have a part of it

    CJ: Do these conversations make you nervous?

    Lue: Uhh (Sigh). You know, conversation doesn’t make me nervous, people make me nervous. It’s probably just a product of my upbringing and maybe my choice of career, profession. I think dialogue and conversation’s great. It’s funny you should ask me that, Curt, because there’s a…my wife and I, my wife jokes quite a bit with me and she sometimes doesn’t know if I’m being serious or not, just because of my sense of humor. And I told her, I said, “After forty or fifty years around the sun, the one thing I’ve learned, it’s…you know, I love humanity, it’s humans I don’t like.” And there’s a difference. I love the idea of humanity, but unfortunately, individually, as human beings, I think there’s a lot of room for improvement for all of us, to be honest with you. And so therein lies the problem. To have a conversation that’s concerning humanity, I have to engage humans and that’s what I find challenging sometimes. Because humans are…we’re emotional beings, we can be fragile beings, and sometimes we can be violent beings to each other. And that violence can manifest itself, not just physically, but sometimes just in words and hatred. And so, that’s what I find so challenging. Just simply trying to have a conversation and there’s people out there that want to stifle that conversation, for whatever reason.

    CJ: Okay, well, let’s minimize your trepidation by saying anytime you need to refill your coffee, or go to the washroom, people who are watching, just bear with us, because we’re going on for quite some time. So here’s a question from myself.

    ~~~

    [the_ad_placement]

    Lue: By the way, I have to ask: What do you think of my coffee cup? I know people are expecting like machine guns and tanks and whatnot, right? But I have flowers to celebrate fall, right?

    CJ: I have hearts.

    Lue: Ohh, you beat me. Okay (laughs). Damn you, Curt.

    CJ: We’re conspicuous for so many reasons. Okay. Is there any evidence that these, whatever we want to call them, aliens, creatures, future humans, whatever we want, let’s label them X. Is there any evidence that these X can shapeshift, can look like other humans or other creatures?

    Lue: You know, I don’t know. But I’ll tell you mimicry is something that is common in nature and it’s even common in what we do. There are species who defend themselves in the animal kingdom. Let’s take the coral snake versus, let’s say, the king snake. The coral snake is very deadly. The king snake has the same colors except for some of the color arrangements are in opposite order and these animals mimic other animals for protection.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: Now, let’s look at it from a humanistic perspective. We, have something where we call light deception on, for example, Navy ships. In the old days, we would string lights in a way that would try, at night, to make a big, large destroyer appear to be a fishing boat, right? A trawler. And light deception is part of camouflage, part of survival. So, if there is a species that is far more advanced than human beings. it’s not inconceivable. Look, we can go to the panda exhibit in the zoo in China, and see that zookeepers will often wear these (laughs) kind of…it appears ridiculous to us, but not so ridiculous to the pandas. The zookeepers are required to wear a panda suit, a big, furry teddy bear suit so when they go into the enclosure to clean up the enclosure or whatnot and provide food, they don’t disrupt the local panda population, as least as possible. Of course, it’s entertaining to us to see a bunch of humans walking around in furry panda suits, but at the end of the day, it’s effective.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: So, I don’t think it’s inconceivable. The problem is when we start going down the road of, you say shapeshifting and things like that, immediately we start going into the world of “woo,” quote, unquote and paranormal. And again, there’s nothing wrong with that, I’ve written articles on paranormal, right? Everything by definition in science is paranormal until becomes normal, frankly. But the problem is that we don’t have hard evidence, we have a lot of anecdotal evidence. A lot of people report seeing things, that these UAP can look like an aircraft, sometimes disguise itself like a 747 or that the occupants can make themselves look like human beings. I don’t really know, During our time at AATIP, we were focused primarily on the nuts and bolts of this and what our military eyewitnesses and collection capabilities were telling us. At the time, we didn’t really have any reports of quote, unquote, “shapeshifting.”

    ~~~

    The Incommensurability Problem and The Fermi Paradox

    by Eric Davis, Astrophysicist at the National Institute for Discovery Science

    Begin Excerpt

    I submit that this absurdity of UFOs is not absurd (nonsensical, bizarre, ill-behaved)! This “absurdity” is merely a reflection of the cognitive mismatch or the Incommensurability Problem that is likely to exist between humans and the UFOs.

    In this particular case, the UFOs are sending the message and we are the recipients. The message(s) they are sending to us are icons: icons fashioned by the phenomenon and sent to us via some yet to be determined sensory modality. The differences between our respective cultures, biologies, sensory modalities, histories, dimensional existence, physical evolution, models of nature and science, etc. are directly responsible for our total lack of understanding of the UFO phenomenon and what their message is. We cannot see what UFOs believe to be (iconical) similarities in the message that is intended for us. These stated differences directly impact our conventions of interpretation in such a way as to impair our recognition of the “similarity” between the sign and the signified contained within the icons of the UFO message, further impairing our ability to “see and understand” their message.

    The difference between the sensory modalities of UFO phenomena and humans is responsible for our inability to properly detect the UFO message (icons) and correspond with them intelligently, or in their view, they are unable to correspond intelligently with us. This difference may also prevent us from correctly interpreting what their icons are if we do in fact recognize them. In this regard, recall that we will project our own species-specific experiences onto their icons (messages) thus manifesting the appearance of “absurdity” during the human-UFO interaction. UFO abduction cases could exemplify this such that the “absurd” activities (or scenes) concurrent with abduction events could merely be the iconical defense mechanism deployed by the UFO to protect itself from the victim/subject much like the way Spilomyia hamifera protects itself from insect eating birds by mimicry.

    Kuiper and Freitas suggest that ETI probes visiting Earth would find it necessary to hide themselves from our detection mechanisms until they have assessed our technological level or potential threat and hazards. They would employ an adaptive multi-level risk program to avoid danger. Low observable stealth such as simple camouflage through mimicry, which works well in nature, may be the technique of choice used by visiting ETI-probes/UFOs already experienced in surveillance. Examples of mimicry techniques are ETI-probes/UFOs entering the atmosphere with either the look or trajectory of a meteor or hidden within a meteor shower, behaving like dark meteors without the associated optical signature, hiding within an artificial or natural cloud, behaving as pseudostars sitting stationary over certain regions, or mimicking man-made aircraft’s aggregate features, including perhaps the mysterious unmarked black helicopters (why should a shape-shifting UFO not be able to mimic a contemporary aircraft). Another possibility is mimicry techniques employed for the manipulation of human consciousness to induce the various manifestations of “absurd” interactions or scenery associated with the UFO encounter. This in combination with the mimicry of man-made aircraft and helicopters aggregate features was prominent in the Cash-Landrum UFO case.

    The current ETI Hypothesis for UFOs is not strange enough to explain the facts of the phenomenon. However, there is no experiment that can distinguish between phenomena manifested by visiting interstellar (arbitrarily advanced) ETI and UFOs. In either case, the technology exploited by such intelligences would appear to the present human race as being indistinguishable from magic and appear nonsensical, bizarre and ill-behaved (or absurd).

    End Excerpt

    ~~~

    [the_ad_placement]

    Lue: Now cloaking, that’s a different story. We do have some information that indicates that these things do have an ability to try to evade some of our sensors. For example, radar, You get these nonsensical, what looks like spoofing or radar jamming occurring. You have the low observability portion of the five observables, that includes things like active camouflage and cloaking and again, low observability. It’s hard to see. And so, there is information that we have that pertains to that.

    CJ: Okay, speaking about cloaking, Is there any evidence that suggests UFOs are associated with orbs, at least anecdotally? Firstly, what’s the reason for that? And then second, is there any evidence that you know that suggests that these orbs may be more plentiful than we think, perhaps around us, whether in homes or outside cityscapes, just cloaked?

    Lue: Yeah, the problem with the word orb is you’re not going to get a common definition from most people. Everybody thinks an orb means something else. Some people think an orb is a little plasma ball, others say it’s much, much bigger and intelligently controlled. You know, orb is kind of a general catch-all. When you say, “Is an orb related to a UFO?” Well, by definition, it is a UFO. It’s unidentified and it’s flying, or it’s in our atmosphere, and it’s an object, it’s something. We don’t know what it is. So, by definition, an orb is a UAP, but the question is, is it a UAP in the sense that we’re talking about UAPs, whether lenticular-type shape or maybe a cylindrical shape or a triangular vehicle? I think the jury’s still out. There does seem to be some information that suggests that orbs, as you call them, are sometimes associated with other UAP sightings, that there are UAPs in the sky, and then you see these little balls of light.

    The problem is, it’s a very generalized term. We now know for a fact that things such as ball lightning are real. Is that an orb? Well, yeah, at times it looks like an orb to me. Other times, when you have large amounts of energy being released into the atmosphere in the environment, let’s talk about tectonic movement, for example, where these titanic forces right underneath the surface of the Earth, creating this plasma effect in the atmosphere, where you get these different colors shooting into the sky, and again, orbs, if you will, being reported and seen and even captured on camera. But that’s an orb that I think we can all agree is probably being manufactured naturally. Now, are there orbs that are intelligently controlled? Well, we did talk about that at AATIP. You know, one of the questions was: When you look at the different shapes and sizes of vehicles, orbs tend to be almost like a, I guess in a vernacular sense, think of a UAV, think of a drone. They tend to be described as being much smaller, highly maneuverable, different colors, sometimes red, sometimes green, sometimes yellow, sometimes blue. Is it possible that those colors are indicative of mission set, right? Are the blue ones doing certain things where the reds are doing something else, and their purpose is something else, where the yellows and whites are doing something else? It’s certainly plausible. I don’t dismiss that at all. The problem is we just don’t have enough information because it appears that these orbs tend to be [so] small that it’s really hard to argue the case that they are being occupied by any type of biological organism. Now, it doesn’t mean that they’re not. It just means that we haven’t seen that yet. We don’t know what these are. Are these perhaps some sort of unmanned, reconnaissance capability that are kicked out, not much different than we use drones ourselves, right? To do certain types of reconnaissance missions. We don’t know, it’s certainly plausible.

    CJ: The reasoning behind my question is that Tom DeLonge, I recall, was saying one shouldn’t do CE-5. I’m going to get you to explain what CE-5 is. But anyway. One shouldn’t do CE-5 and when one does it, often orbs are associated with it, and one thinks, “Oh, that’s great, because I’m inducing some contact.” And Tom said, “Be careful. One shouldn’t do that lightly.” So that to me implies that there’s something nefarious or potentially, nefarious about these orbs.

    Lue: Well, I mean, look, I would say the same thing: Don’t mess around with electricity unless you’re a licensed electrician. Be careful because you can get zapped. That’s true with anything. That’s not just orbs, that’s electricity, that’s swimming pools, that’s everything. I can’t speak for Tom. I don’t know what Tom meant by that. But I can tell you that general word of caution, I think, is appropriate for just about anything out there. If you don’t know what you’re getting into, just be mindful. There are potentially things that go bump in the night and it’s not all necessarily good, or bad,

    CJ: It’s not all sunflowers, like your cups.

    Lue: Well, anytime you go snorkeling…look, I’m an avid scuba diver, I’ve been scuba diving my whole life. There’s always a remote risk, when you go scuba diving in some of these beautiful coral reefs, you know what? There’s a risk you’re gonna come up against a shark. Now, not all sharks are going to do anything but if you’re carrying a bag of fresh fish that you wound up spearing and are now bleeding out of this bag and dead, chances are you may attract a lot more attention than just a curious shark. You may be attracting a hungry shark and now you gotta kind of pay attention. So, I think that’s wise advice on just about everything that we do. I live here in Wyoming where a lot of people like to go spelunking, and adventuring into caves. But again, you have to have the right equipment. Be careful when you go into a cave, make sure you’ve got light, make sure you’ve got gear that can get you in and out and rope and whatnot.

    CJ: Okay, now let’s get to some of the audience questions. This one comes from Stephanie: Is there information being recorded or being encoded into less mainstream information media channels that can be parsed out, John Nash style, like “A Beautiful Mind” that can help us arrive closer at the truth of this phenomenon?

    Lue: So I’m going to need your help, Curt, kind of detangling that question because I’m not familiar with the reference. But, when you’re saying encoded, can you repeat that question one more time? I want to answer it and I just want to make sure I’m understanding the question.

    CJ: Okay. Just deciphering. Essentially, what someone of sufficient intelligence can decipher that there are different drops being placed by, let’s say, disclosure people in the government.

    Lue: Oh, I see what you’re saying! Breadcrumbs. What I refer to as breadcrumbs.

    CJ: And that one can decipher it.

    Lue: Umm, well, you know, I’ve always left breadcrumbs every interview I’ve ever do, for the last four years. I think people can now go back through a lot of what I’ve said in the past and come back and say, “Oh, so that’s what he was referring to. Now, we know.” Because certain people have come out, whether it’s Jim Lacatski and his book or other folks. I can’t speak on behalf of the government and other people. I suspect that…what I can say is, I think that we are at a point now where we don’t have to leave the breadcrumbs that we have been in the past. I think the time has come for us to be even a little bit more straightforward and a little bit more clearer. The difficult part is when you’re dealing with security clearances and NDAs, which everybody hates to hear. That’s becoming a three-letter word that I think is probably going to be etched somewhere on my tombstone and people are going to be throwing tomatoes at it from here to eternity because they hate it. But they hate it because they don’t really understand what it means and why you have them. Those NDAs definitely get in the way of having a complete transparent conversation but I also think that we are having it, I think…we’ve come a long, long ways.

    And, as far as answering this specific question, as far as leaving breadcrumbs, I can’t speak for anybody else. I don’t know precisely what the government…because the government isn’t just this one huge, if you will, monolithic enterprise. It’s comprised of people and each of those people have their own interests and their own desires and their own agendas, and so, I can’t speak for them. I can only speak for me. I think, certainly, if people were to look at all the talks I’ve given and really look at them, and listened to them closely, they will see that a lot more has been said than might necessarily be acknowledged.

    CJ: Okay, this one comes from Ross Coulthart. Since you left the DoD, have you been warned not to talk publicly about certain things? And if so, what?

    Lue: Yes, I have been warned. I have been warned, first of all, not to discuss classified information, which I have heeded, thus far, and will continue to do so. I’ve been threatened. There are individuals in the Pentagon that did not like what I do, and how I did it. And so, once Secretary Mattis’ Public Affairs Officer, Dana White, left, they started to change the narrative a little bit.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: I was told that I would be labeled crazy, and that they would come after my security clearance, which they did. They actually did try to do that and they were true to their word. But fortunately, I had some some some friends and allies that knew exactly what I was doing beforehand  and it wasn’t quite so easy for them to be able to do that. But to put it simply, yeah, I’ve been warned.

    CJ: So you’ve been warned. Have you ever gotten in trouble? Ross has a sub question. Have you gotten into trouble for acknowledging that the U.S. has recovered non-terrestrial materials?

    ~~~

    ~~~

    [the_ad]

    Lue: Well, they’re watching me very closely. There’s elements that are trying to get me into trouble, so that’s why I walk a very fine line. I walk right up to that line, but I won’t step over it, because they’re waiting for me to screw up. They’re waiting for me to say one word that I shouldn’t say, in order to use that against me and silence me. So yeah, I mean, I have gotten in trouble, they tried to come after my clearance, like I said, and unfortunately, I had to seek legal counsel to protect my constitutional rights to do so. It seems that they’ve backed off a little bit, for now, but I’m not fooling myself. I know that there’s wolves circling just beyond the limit of the fire that I’m standing next to, waiting for an opportunity. So, I’m very mindful of that. But, I will also say that there’s some really good elements. I’ve had an opportunity…sometimes through the worst of adversity, you get a chance to see people at their best.

    And I’ve learned that there are people on the inside that really do want to have the conversation and that want to see things done right. And these are senior people. Some of these are very, very, very senior people, and they were willing to put their professional careers on the line to defend me and protect me. That means a lot, that makes me feel good. Because I’ve always been that way. I could have called people out by name three or four years ago just to defend my credibility, and I never did. People are now realizing that a lot of those people are now finally coming out of the shadows. And, you know, my life could have been a lot easier had I called them out to defend me, but I didn’t, because I made a promise to them that I would never reveal their identities until they were ready to do so. And that’s just the way I am. To me, principles mean everything. Either you’re a person of principle or you’re not. Doesn’t matter how bad the going gets, you gotta stick by your word. So, it’s been a mixed bag for me. Make sure Ross, we tell Ross here the full story, that even though I’ve had people coming after me, I’ve also had a lot of people rally around me and to me, I’d rather focus on those folks. Those are the folks that just makes you want to do this even more because they’re willing to get your back.

    CJ: And are you allowed to say those folks’ names?

    Lue: They haven’t come out of the shadows, yet, they’re in the process and we’ll let that play out. But I think it’ll be quite obvious when they step out, because people are going to go, “Oh, that person? Oh my goodness. I didn’t know that person was with Lue.” So I’ll leave it at that. Another breadcrumb, right?

    CJ: Right, right. I have a follow up question to what you just said, which is there are wolves that are watching you like a hawk. Is there another reason outside of national security that they they don’t want you to disclose what you may disclose or they’re worried you may?

    Lue: Yeah, I mean.

    CJ: What is their worry outside of that?

    Lue: There has been forbidden truths, we can call them, if you will. There have been forbidden truths in the history of not just our country, but many countries. Truths that could upset a balance. A balance that’s  been around for a long time. Let me give you case in point. Let’s say there were some people that were doing their job by running a UFO program in the past but because certain things happened, presidents were no longer briefed, people in Congress were no longer briefed, who should have been, and now they’re running an operation that’s considered rogue, but it’s still an important mission. Turns out, all of a sudden now, let’s say, hypothetically, the cat’s out of the bag…what’s going to happen to those people when when the government realizes they were running operations, for better or for worse, without any oversight, without any legal oversight, right? Who’s gonna be held accountable for that? The fact that they did not brief, legally, like they were supposed to, certain members of Congress and committees and oversight committees and the chain of command. That’s potentially criminal action.

    Let’s say, I’ve said this before, let’s say you have two competing companies, you have Aerospace Company A and Aerospace Company B. And Aerospace Company A, for whatever reason, gets a favor and some sort of really exotic, game-changing material is provided to that company to do this analysis. Meanwhile, Company B, who is competing fairly, doesn’t get that material. Turns out Company A now starts getting a lot of contracts, defense contracts, and becomes a multi-billion dollar company, while Company B, who never had the advantage of having that material, goes into bankruptcy. Hundreds of people lose their jobs and stockholders lose their investment. Keeping in mind that both companies are supposed to be treated fairly and have fair competition when it comes to U.S. government contracts. Now what happens? Where’s the liability? And, by the way, now these companies are doing good things for the United States, but they got there because they had an unfair advantage, competitive advantage, potentially. Again, I’m not…this is hypothetical, right? Where’s the liability there? You’re talking trillions and trillions of dollars worth of liability. And who made those decisions to do that, who’s going to be held culpable for that? The security exchange commission would not be very happy to know that two publicly-traded companies that were competing for a contract, one had an unfair advantage, the other went bankrupt. That’s a problem. That’s a real problem.

    And so, you’re talking about big, big money interests. You’re talking about things that are going into that gray world that go beyond just government interest. You’re talking about banking. You’re talking about some of the biggest names on the planet that have a lot to lose. Or a lot to gain, in hindsight. So, I think we always have to be careful that governments have always had interesting ties to certain interests. And that’s true of all governments, that’s not just the U.S., that’s everybody. And we need to be mindful of that because you could be putting some people in a very uncomfortable position. And I’m aware of that and that’s why I’ve been very delicate how I approach this topic. I’m not trying to beat anybody up, I’m not trying to expose anybody and say, “Ah, ha, ha, gotcha! See there!” I’m trying to have the conversation in a collaborative, meaningful way where everybody wins, nobody has to get burned, right? It’s not a zero-sum game, I’m not…

    CJ: Hypothetically, do they view it like that? Like, there’s a potential where everyone can win? Or do they view it somewhat a zero sum.

    Lue: Well, I can’t speak for them, I can’t tell you what they think, all I can tell you is what I think and my approach. And my approach is to say, “Look, guys, we’re not trying to expose anybody. This is not a witch hunt.” Despite what you may see on social media, where everybody wants their pound of flesh, that’s not going to get us anywhere. We need to be adults about this and we need to have a conversation that, if you really want the truth to come out, you better be willing to compromise. We’re not going to sit there and put people to be eaten by the lions just to satisfy someone’s ego or beef that they might have with somebody else. The truth is more important than that. This is not about, “See, I told you so!” or being vindicated. This is about having a conversation that can affect all of humanity and we have to be willing to set aside some of that, if you will. And understandably so. You’ve got lots and lots of decades worth of people covering this up. I know there’s a lot of animosity and resentment as a result of that by people saying, “You’ve been lying to us for all this time,” but we got to be willing to put that aside if we really want to move forward, in my opinion.

    CJ: You’re referring to animosity from the general public or animosity from some of these wolves?

    Lue: No, the general public who want their pound of flesh because people have been covering this topic up for too long, knowing that it’s real and then lying to the American people.

    CJ: Potentially, how long is too long, potentially? Is it centuries? Is it decades?

    Lue: Well, there’s information that goes way back…I live here in Wyoming and I live next to members of the Crow Nation. And if you’ve ever had a chance to talk and really engage with indigenous people, first of all, they’re very, very private. Two, they have an incredibly rich history. Their oral traditions and oral history doesn’t go back a few 100 years, it goes back millennia. In fact, when Europe was facing its dark ages, and mankind almost went extinct in the European continent and we were burning books, indigenous people over here were experiencing a golden era. That wasn’t the case over here. And the way they look at nature, the way they look at this topic, UAP, is not like we look at it through Western eyes. In fact, they don’t view it as a threat at all. In fact, they don’t view it even as paranormal. They view it as normal, as part of nature, their natural environment, as real as the lakes and the sky and the trees on the mountains are. And it’s just accepted as part of the greater Universe. And I think there’s some beauty there. They’re not held hostage by their fears. In fact, they embrace it. And that goes to show that you don’t have to view this topic as an either or. It doesn’t have to be viewed as a threat, or as some sort of saving opportunity for our species. It could just be a natural part of our existence. Again, do I subscribe to that? I don’t know. But I certainly think it’s another way, another perspective that we should consider. If that is the case, and they’re right, then we’ve been dealing with this for millennia. I can tell you that having a chance to talk to some people in the Vatican, they describe these flaming Roman shields in the sky that would follow them from battlefield to battlefield, what they would they call a Clipeus, which is the shape of the Roman shield. That’s documented, that’s there.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: In fact, I think, if I’m not mistaken – I haven’t read it from Jacques Vallée – but from my understanding, Jacques Vallée even wrote a little bit about that.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: But I’ve seen that evidence myself. There is documentation of these strange things in the sky going back a long, long time. So, I don’t think it’s necessarily modern. Maybe our understanding is a little bit more advanced and maybe consider that modern, but I don’t think we’re dealing with a new phenomenon. I think we may be dealing with a new recognition, and perhaps, hopefully, at some point, a new understanding. But I don’t think this is a new phenomenon to mankind. I think we’ve been faced with this phenomenon for quite some time.

    CJ: You mentioned millennia, which is thousands of years. I’m wondering, potentially, tens of thousands, potentially millions, or do you think it’s cut off around nine thousand or so (CJ was smiling as he said the nine-thousand part. Sarcasm)?

    Lue: Well, that’s hard to tell because we, only as a species, Homo sapiens sapiens had been around roughly for 100,000 years. And we only really gotten into written language in the last five, six thousand years, really, and gone from hunter gatherers to more of an agrarian-type society, organized society. Which is, if you take 100,000 years, and you compare the last five-thousand years, really only five percent of our entire time, rummaging around on this planet, has been in somewhat of a civilized fashion. You know, and then if you look at that, to the context of it’s been, only in the last thousand years, two-thousand years, we understood the Archimedes steam engine, right? And we really didn’t even fully appreciate it until the Industrial Revolution just a couple hundreds years ago. So, now you’re talking about 0.2% of mankind’s time on Earth, we’ve been industrialized, we’ve been civilized. So how much of our own history do we really know? Well, we can go back 5000 years, pretty easily. 8000 years, things start to get a little murky, right? And anything much beyond that, we really have no clue about.

    And the question is: Have we, as a species been aware of this phenomenon much longer? Well, let’s look at what we do know. The general consensus is that the American population, when I say American, I don’t mean United States. I mean North America, South America, Central American population, really began about 20,000 years ago during the land bridge when you had a migration coming over the land bridge and settling this part of the planet. But, in reality, it turns out now that a lot of scientists believe that there were many migrations, and many migrations before that primary migration 20,000 years ago. In fact, there may have been multiple migrations going back, perhaps even 100,000 years ago.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    [the_ad]

    Lue: So, is it possible that our society was aware of these things, maybe even interacted with these things in a certain fashion? Sure, it’s possible, absolutely, it’s possible. I mean, most of our history we have no idea about. It’s like spending an entire day and having amnesia, except for the last five minutes before you go to bed. Where the hell was I? What was I doing? What did I eat? Who did I speak to? What did I say?

    CJ: What I’m wondering is, what you’re referencing is written history and I’m curious about archaeological evidence that you’re aware of…that potentially exists.

    Lue: Ahh. Interesting. So, let me give you a real-world example and I’m not going to either refute or defend it. But again, I live here in Wyoming and there is a legend here called the little people of the Pryor Mountains. And for generations, the indigenous people have reported what appeared to be this fearsome pygmy warrior tribe of humanoid type creatures that lived in the mountains. And for many, many, many years, it was completely considered myth.

    CJ: Folklore, right.

    Lue: Folkore. And it turns out that scientists began uncovering artifacts up in the mountains that, to some degree, reinforced the notion that there was some sort of small hominoid type of creature living in the mountains. They found small tools, they found small bones that appear to be coming from some human-like creature. (Not sure if that’s what Lue was talking about) I don’t know, I don’t know the details, thoroughly. I haven’t had a chance to really explore it or study it. But that part is true, that people are now beginning to look back and say, “Well, wait a minute. Is that possible? Because we’re starting to find archaeological evidence.” So, it’s interesting. Here, I can walk up into the Bighorn mountains, and they’re pulling out spearheads, spearheads that are 11,000 years old. Now think about that for a minute. 11,000 years old. If that spearhead could talk, what people did it come from, what were they hunting? What did this place look like? Environments change in a blink of an eye. Look at the Sahara desert in 5000 years. There was a lot of wildlife living in the Sahara region before it became a desert, and that was in recent human history, by the way. We were inhabiting the planet when that happened. There are drawings on the side of rock walls that illustrate how the alligators, crocodiles, if you will, and animals that live, not just on the savanna, but in the wetlands, all cohabitating there.

    ~~~

    Lue: So this Earth is very dynamic. Every time we have a – for us, it seems like a long time – but every time we have an ice age, every roughly 10, 15,000 years, the entire topography of Earth changes, the climate changes, animals change, people change, right? I think it’s very possible that there is, potentially, some sort of archaeological evidence. The question is, would we recognize it if we saw it? And that’s another big, big question we have to ask ourselves. Let me ask you this as a scientist, Curt. If I said to you, “Curt, you have a task. You can make it out of whatever you want, any material you want. Your goal is to…in a million years, you have to create something now that will last a million years, to prove you were here. What would you do, how would you do it? Think about it, go ahead.

    (Audio cut off but I believe on the livestream Curt said he would need time to think about it and answer it later)

    Lue: No, no, no. No, I love you, man but we’re gonna we’re gonna have this mental exercise right now. I think it’s important. And by the way, it’s not a trick question and I’m not playing “gotcha.” Just, what would you give me…just some examples that you might throw out there to say, “Okay, I would make something out of this or out of that, or…”

    CJ: There are some metamaterials that seem to be harder than diamond, so whatever is a hardest material, it would be made out of that. Also, just so you know, I don’t classify myself as a scientist. I’m more of a hobbyist, let’s say. So that’s what I would do.

    Lue: So you’d find some sort of hard material that would outlast just about anything else on Earth, right? Where would you put that material?

    CJ: Orbit, is one place

    Lue: Okay. And hopefully a non-retrograde orbit, right? So geosynchronous and hopefully nothing would perturb it. In a million years, chances are something would, but okay, hypothetically in orbit, good. Here on Earth, it’s really hard to make anything that lasts more than a few thousand years. You can even make the pyramids and look at them now and say, “Wow, those things are 5000 years old and they don’t look so great and probably, in another 5000 years, they’re not gonna look good at all. And they may last, eventually, until you might have a hill of sand in 100,000 years, but that’s going to be about it. And that’s made out of rock, right? Mount Rushmore, same thing. It’s going to be gone in 10,000 years, you won’t probably even recognize it, it will be too worn. Even mountains, in millions of years, become deserts. Right? Time moves on. Then you have the subduction zones of Earth that eventually, if you wait long enough on the surface of the planet, it all gets recycled anyways. It’s all going to get sucked down into the mantle and get spit out the other end as new land.

    So nothing is indelible on this planet, it’s constantly changing. And to create something that can last the the sands of time, so to speak, is a lot harder than one might think. The few examples we have here on Earth, that are manmade, you can look to the pyramids, you can look at things like Stonehenge, but that’s a blink of an eye. Those were just made a few thousand years ago, and they’re not going to be around for a whole long lot of time. That’s just not the way Earth is. So if we’re trying to find some sort of marker, chances are you’re not going to find it buried in the Earth unless it only happened maybe the last 5000 years ago or so, right? Even some of the most most dramatic examples of terraforming. Let’s look at, for example, the meteor impact crater in Arizona that happened 60,000 years ago. That’s already filling in.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: In another 100,000 years from now, you might not even know anything ever happened because of the processes of Earth and what this planet does. It’s constantly erasing what’s on the surface, and it’s constantly burying what lies beneath, deeper and deeper and deeper until eventually, it gets recycled.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: So, that’s a hard question. What would last long enough for us to go back and say, “Wow, this is an indicator of alien life on this planet 100,000 years ago?” What would you have to do to achieve that, to accomplish that? It’s a lot harder than one might think. And then again, would you recognize it?

    One might say, well, DNA. DNA is a perfect example. If you wanted to do something that was enduring for humanity, that we could look back 100,000 years ago and say, “Yes, that was absolutely manipulated by an intelligent life form.” Well, deoxyribonucleic acid may be one way to do it. You can put coding and sequencing in there that will perpetuate over time and time and yes, you’ll have some big degradation over generations, but in essence you could do something that way. And basically, it’s a biological marker, right?

    ~~~

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    ~~~

    [the_ad_placement]

    Lue: So, we have to be careful when we say we look for evidence because evidence isn’t just necessarily a spearhead found in the Big Horn Mountains from 11,000 years ago. It’s not necessarily a pyramid sitting in the middle of the desert. It could be far more sophisticated than that. You said put it in orbit, right? Well, what if we put that, rather than in orbit, we put it into the human body. So, anyways, I know it’s a very long-winded way to answer that question.

    CJ: Yeah, let me ask a quick follow up and then we’ll get to Super Chat questions, audience questions and so on. Are there places that we should be looking for evidence that you feel like we’re not. So, for example, I mentioned archaeological investigation sites. The reason I brought that up is some people say craft were found. Okay. But you’re also saying there may be other markers, maybe possibly biologically, for example…

    Lue: You know, near-Earth, celestial bodies like the Moon, where you don’t have atmospheric friction, you don’t have the tectonic processes that we have here on Earth that are constantly recycling. Someone might want to put something on the Moon, reminiscent of “2001: A Space Odyssey,” where you have these monolithic markers. That’s certainly one way to do it. You could put something where you don’t have those same processes occurring where maybe you might be able to extend your time twice as long for leaving some sort of archaeological evidence. The evidence could be right here, could be right in front of us, could be within genetic sequencing. It could even be more obvious than that. It could be the very fact that we’re alive and we’re on this planet, is an example of some intelligent life, somewhere, making a decision that life needs to exist on this planet. We need to be open to all of that, we really do. I think we need to cast a very wide net and this is why I always say, “All options have to be on the table until they’re not on the table.” Because, you may be surprised. Something that’s super, super intelligent probably isn’t going to build a pyramid that’s only going to last 20,000 years. They’re going to do something that’s far more enduring, something that will really be, no kidding, maybe a million years.

    CJ: I understand. Alright, this question comes from Terry.

    Lue: So I gotta ask, real quick, Curt. Forgive me, and I know I’m gonna get a lot of hate for this: What is a Super Chat? I hear it a lot. What’s a Super Chat?

    CJ: Well, a Super Chat is when someone pays $5 ,$50, $100 sometimes.

    Lue: Wow.

    CJ: Most of these or $5 to $10. You’ll get your check.

    Lue: (laughs) Don’t even say that because people are gonna believe it! Curt, clear the record, man. I’m not getting paid a penny for this.

    CJ: I’m kidding, I’m kidding everyone. And thank you so much for supporting this podcast. I appreciate it a tremendous amount. It’s not easy to do this full time and this is a place where I have almost no knowledge in, Lue, as you could probably tell by the sophomoric nature of my questions

    Lue: Curt, I don’t think anybody does, you’re not alone, brother. You think I do? You think…if I had all the answers, you think we’d be where we are today? No, I’ve got more questions than answers, but that’s okay. My fears, when people say they do have all the answers, those are the people that I don’t trust, because I know they don’t. I’ve been in this for a long time for the U.S. government and I damn sure don’t have all the answers, so no, don’t worry about it.

    CJ: Okay, let’s get to the Super Chat by Terry. Mr. Elizondo has called the UAP, “craft” multiple times and made comments about not knowing who is piloting them. This seems like an assumption, at least without proof. Does this mean there’s proof, let’s call that evidence because proof in science doesn’t exist, that these are craft with pilots?

    Lue: Well, let’s break it down. Craft is a noun, it’s a physical object that allows the transportation of something from point A to point B. Whether it’s a hovercraft, right? Or a spacecraft, or an aircraft, it’s a vehicle. And so what defines a vehicle? Well, physical material. There’s something to it, nuts and bolts. I’ve made it very clear, already, my opinion about…my assertion that there is material that is related to this topic that has been recovered, in the past. That’s all I can say about that.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: But that’s why I use the term craft. It’s maybe not the best term, but to me, it’s fairly accurate, at least until I can find another term that’s more accurate. As far as piloted or manned? I’m not sure manned is the right way to say because that means there’s a human behind it and I’m not sure that’s the case. But being piloted or intelligently controlled…well, the way they maneuver and the way they respond to us, think of in the scientific world, stimulus versus reaction. We can provoke and elicit responses from these things. So, Dave Fravor said, “When I came in to close the gap on this thing, this thing reacted to me. First of all, it pointed at me, and then it maintained a safe distance and mirrored my maneuvers.” So, there is some sort of intelligence behind it. That’s not random. That’s not Brownian movement, right? That’s a deliberate action by something…

    CJ: There’s justification in calling it craft, other than there may be (inaudible)

    Lue: Correct. And something or someone is making a decision how these things perform and react. So, I think it’s fair to say that they are intelligently-controlled craft of some sort. Now, much beyond that, I think that’s up for debate.

    CJ: Are there potential photos that exist that show occupants in some of these, quote, unquote “craft”?

    Lue: Well, there’s a lot of photos that show a lot of things. The question is, are they real, are they legitimate?

    CJ: Are there potential photos that have [been] potentially deemed as legitimate, that have that quality?

    Lue: Umm, there are very compelling photos out there that seem to show something inside, some sort of occupancy, and I’ll leave it at that. Because it gets really murky, much beyond that and there’s a lot that can can be speculated. And so I try to avoid speculation as much as possible. But yes, I’ve spoken to enough people, firsthand knowledge, that not only report the crafts that we know exist, but potentially some sort of intelligence inside these vehicles.

    CJ: You mentioned it gets murky, murky as in low resolution or murky…what do you mean by murky?

    Lue: I mean in every aspect. The source of the information, how the information was obtained, under what circumstances, resolution of photographic evidence, all of it. And so, that’s why we have to be very careful.

    CJ: Okay. This question comes from James. Ross Coulthart said it would be good to offer a deal to those who kept the program secret. They get some immunity in exchange for getting us the truth. I think he referenced truth and reconciliation. Would you guys back a change.org-style petition for this? Do you think that The Others would like it?

    Lue: Absolutely. I think Ross is 100% correct. I think we need to offer amnesty from criminal and civil prosecution if we want them to come out of the shadows. There’s a lot of pressure right now and I’m sure they don’t, whoever’s part of that cabal, doesn’t appreciate that type of pressure. And so, if we could offer some sort of truth and reconciliation, I think something to that effect would be very helpful in this cause and say, “Look, we’re not gonna label you. In fact, we’ll give you anonymity and confidentiality. What we’ll do is, if you provide us this information, we’ll make sure that…kind of like a witness protection program except no one will ever know you were part of this except for very few people. I think that’s a great idea. I think that’s what we should be doing.

    CJ: Ross suggested, in the previous interview, a hashtag called #NASATellTheTruth and so we ran with that. And part of that was tongue in cheek. But then it had me wondering…well, what would be an effective way of getting this information disclosed quicker and more truthfully?

    Lue: Well, NASA…look, you guys, it’s working. NASA is now starting to have conversations and the director of NASA himself is beginning to entertain questions about about this topic.

    ~~~

    https://twitter.com/UAP1949/status/1451803056421670913

    ~~~

    Lue: So I think that’s great, I don’t think that’s tongue in cheek at all. It’s working. I’d give yourself a big pat on the back because I just saw a headline two days ago where he’s talking with Avi Loeb, and they’re going to be having this conversation. So, don’t look now but you just achieved part of what you’re trying to achieve.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    CJ: Thank you, Lue. What would you recommend? What’s another avenue? So Storm Area 51 is a horrible idea? Anything else?

    Lue: You’re gonna get a bunch of young kids in trouble and potentially really hurt.

    CJ: This person, James, recommended a change.org petition. Truth and Reconciliation is also recommended by Ross. What do you see as an efficient and effective plan?

    Lue: I think we also have to start to continue to take an active role in our politics and voting people in who want transparency. We have been victimized too long by our ignorance. We have allowed people to get into the government that don’t have our best interests at heart, that are motivated by politics and not diplomacy. And where information is traded like a commodity. And so, secrecy is something that is abused for the wrong reasons and I think that’s problematic. There are some points of light right now in Congress, we see, between Senator Harry Reid, [who] is an absolute American hero. You have, on the other side of the aisle, Marco Rubio, you have Congressman Gallego and Tim Burchett, and Walker and some other folks now finally coming out and saying, “Hey, enough’s enough.” That’s fantastic, that’s how you make a difference. And, making sure that the general public goes to them and encourages them and tells them, “Thank you for doing this.” That goes a long way. These people are taking a huge risk to have this conversation and the more they hear from the public, that it’s okay to pursue this, the more willing they’re going to be to do it, and to have the conversation.

    And it’s working, I just came back from DC myself. I’m not gonna say who I spoke with, but that goes a long way, that means a lot to them. And it gives them the motivation, and the top cover to start asking the hard questions and start poking the executive branch in the chest and saying, “Alright, what do we know about this? And oh, by the way, Secretary of the Air Force, Kendall, with all due respect, don’t come back and say, ‘It’s not a priority,’ just because we can’t prove it’s a threat or not. That’s like saying a submarine pops out of the Potomac River next to Washington, DC and because it’s not wearing an American flag, and you don’t know if it’s a threat, it’s not a priority. That’s the wrong answer.” Again, with all due respect to Secretary Kendall, lest we forget who you work for. It’s not up to you to decide what is of national priority. Let me remind you, it’s not your Air Force, it’s our Air Force and you’re doing a job we told you to do. And if you don’t want to do it, or you’re unable to do it, then we’ll find somebody else who can and you can go back to doing what you were doing before. That’s my word of advice. I paid my dues in the trenches and I know what I swore to do and uphold. Sometimes people in positions of power need to be reminded of that by the people, by the way. So that’s what you guys can do.

    ~~~

    For those who don’t know what Elizondo is talking about and missed Kendall’s comments, here’s tweet 1 of 5 with the full text below if you don’t want to click on it.

    https://twitter.com/BryanDBender/status/1430308306698981379

    ~~~

    [the_ad]

    Bryan Bender: “I asked the new secretary of @usairforce, Frank Kendall, today if he has been briefed on UAPs and if he has thought about what the service’s role should be in defending American airspace against unidentified craft.”

    Kendall: “I’ve given a great deal of thought to defending American airspace but not against UFOs. If asked to do that then we will do it. This is a thing that’s been around for a great many years. I’ve given a great deal thought to defending American airspace but not against UFOs. I know a lot people take it very seriously and I think we should take the phenomenon seriously and try to investigate it. I don’t consider it an imminent threat to the United States or the human race, these phenomenon occurring. But they obviously tweak a lot of peoples’ curiosity and encourage speculation. So if we’re asked to take that on, we will. I would have to see evidence that it was something worthy of the attention of theAir Force as a threat. Our job is to protectagainst threats. I have a lot of known threats out there that we’re working very hard to protect the [US] against. I’d like to focus on those.”

    ~~~

    CJ: Okay, so right now we’ve covered some topics like consciousness UFOs, remote viewing, Skinwalker. All topics that would make the traditional skeptic scoff. However, it may be that there’s a paradigm shift coming. Shortform has compendious book summaries on the topics of UFOs, consciousness, science, philosophy, spirituality and the meta issue of anomalous data leading to radical reorientation of current scientific understanding, such as Thomas Kuhn’s, “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.” Which is, by the way, the short form book I’ve read most recently. How many of your books on Kindle are left essentially unread? How many bookmarks or tabs do you have that you have to bookmark later, and those remain unread? Shortform makes learning what you’ve already wanted to learn, an eminently trivial tasks that can be done fairly quickly. Also, refreshing books that you’ve read in the past is efficiently done via their summaries. They even have exercises which prompt you for retention because there’s very little use in accumulating knowledge if it’s going to be forgotten later. To get a free, five-day trial, visit shortform.com/toe and you’ll also get 20% off the annual subscription, at least for the next 500 people. So perhaps you want to pause this video and visit them. Their extremely clean UI (user interface) makes it wonderfully delightful to read and I have ataxophobia which means that I find this to be an underrated facet, that I haven’t seen in virtually any other place.

    ~~~

    CJ: Dan Z. of That UFO Podcast and the link to his podcast will be in the description, his and Andy’s.

    Lue: Great guy, by the way, he’s doing a lot of great work. Great lead-in, by the way, because when you’re asking what can you do? That’s a guy who’s…and like what you’re doing, is exactly what you guys should be doing.

    CJ: Great, great. AATIP focused on military encounters. Did you ever come across cases where people had experienced high strangeness similar to that found on Skinwalker Ranch? For example, have any pilots reported things like the hitchhiker effect (The alleged hitchhiker effect is when you visit a haunted location or location such as Skinwalker Ranch and something anomalous “attaches” itself to you. When you go home, it causes poltergeist-like effects and other phenomena to wreak havoc in your house and on your family. In the Skinwalker cases, many times, it was the wives who experienced the brunt of the phenomena after their husbands spent time on the ranch.) 

    Lue: You know, what a great question and I know (laughs)…oh my goodness, I’m gonna have to buy Dan a beer for that one. Great, by the way, he’s putting me on the spot and that’s a great question. I want to answer this as accurately as I can without without giving anybody the wrong impression. There’s a reason why the sixth observable is biological effects, okay? That, by definition, is high strangeness. People, after an encounter, experiencing certain physiological and psychological things. Again, let me…to put it succinctly, yes, but not the same as the Skinwalker Ranch.

    CJ: Differences being?

    Lue: Well, Skinwalker was looking at a lot of the paranormal aspects. As you say, in the vernacular, you know, shapeshifters and ghosts and you know, poltergeist, that type of activity, whereas AATIP was looking at nuts and bolts UFOs. But there were some parallels. Some people…and the problem is, we really don’t know enough about that, about the UAP issue to really speak cogently on that. People have had biological effects and that’s as far as we were prepared to go at the time because that could be quantified and qualified. You can look at physiology and morphology and you can look at things like that and you can look at tissues and things like that. You can quantify and qualify. The other stuff is a lot harder, especially anything dealing with a psychological episode. When I saw psychological, I don’t mean it in a bad way, not like it’s made up. I mean, everything we do is interpreted as psychologically right? There’s a mental process that goes along with the physical experience. PTSD is a perfect example. PTSD is very, very real but it’s a psychological response to a physiological and emotional-type situation. And very much the same way. People will will process data differently, just like PTSD, and no different in this topic. You have people, in some cases, I’ve talked to who, like Dave Fravor, just wants to get behind the wheel of one of these things and learn how to fly it. Then you have other people who’ve been deeply and emotionally impacted by this and still carry that with them. For whatever reason, they’ve come up close and personal and it caused some sort of conflict, internally.

    I’ll tell you a great guy, a super, super guy. He was on one of the episodes of “Unidentified,” and he carried the secret around. He told his chain of command, he was up in Canada doing a maneuver with the United States and him and his buddy were situated fairly close to each other, guarding an ammo field there, like a depot, out in the middle of nowhere and encountered a UFO. Well, they go to report it, but his buddy recants the story and says, “No, it’s all made up,” because of the backlash that they received. And he always maintained the story, and he was left out in the cold, people thought he was crazy and he carried that around for a long, long time until one day, his buddy came out and vindicated him. He says, “You know what?” Because I talked to the guy. He said, “It was real, every bit of it. I was there, but I didn’t want to catch crap any longer. So, I recanted the story, and I left my friend out there to flap in the wind, so to speak.” And that caused, I’m sure, a lot of issues. Imagine being part of something extraordinary and then the person that saw [it] with you telling the world, “Nah, we were just kidding, we didn’t really see it.” And you know you did and have to carry that for twenty, thirty years only to come back later.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: His name’s Dave Marceau. He’s a great guy. If you ever get a chance to meet him, I highly recommend you have him on your show. He carried that around in his soul for decades and you should ask him the type of emotional cost it took on him. People call you crazy, people call you a liar, people call you all sorts of things. Only at the end to find out that, you know what? You were right (laughs), it did happen. And the witnesses are coming out now and saying, “Yeah, it did happen.” You say hitchhiker effect. Some folks swear that once you have one of these encounters, there’s this hitchhiker effect and now, all of a sudden, all sorts of weird things start happening to you and your family. There’s an individual that I am very, very, very close to who was very senior in this effort who, at some point, when he comes out of the shadows, you should probably have this conversation with that person. Because he’ll tell you, absolutely yes. But again, I don’t have any data that can be quantified or qualified, so I cannot speak definitively on it. I think we have to remain open that there’s a whole lot of things that are possible.

    ~~~

    Watch the David Marceau segment on “Unidentified” starting at 12:23…

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7v802h

    ~~~

    CJ: I know you said you don’t have data that’s quantifiable, but I’m curious about this hitchhiker effect, or the sixth observable. Is that associated with proximity to the craft or length of time looking at the craft, like another variable? What is associated with this?

    Lue: Damn. Great question! Man! Let me take a pass on that for now. That will be addressed. Great question.

    CJ: Sure. We’ll get to Scott Larkin, who says, “Lue I believe your service to God and country will be understood more clearly in the history books. Are you aware of the CIA’s paper known as The Adam and Eve event? How much of what is going on is currently related to this pending event?

    Lue: I’ve heard of it but I don’t know anything about it. I’ve always made it very clear, up until recently, I really haven’t done much reading on this because I never wanted to have any type of bias, even subconsciously. People get mad at me and go, “Well, didn’t you read this report, didn’t you read that report?” Look, I read government reports, man, that’s what I did, that was my job, and I didn’t want to muddy the waters by, you know, all these other things out there. There’s a lot of stuff that’s interesting there’s a lot of stuff that’s crap. There’s a lot of conspiracy bs out there that’s just nonsense and garbage, and then there’s some stuff that’s pretty accurate. So, I’ve heard of the Adam and Eve, if you will, but I’m not overly familiar with it so it wouldn’t be really good for me to comment because I don’t know the details of it. Now, if you can paraphrase for me, I can give you my opinion on it. Are you aware, Curt, of that?

    CJ: No, I was going to get you to explain to the audience as well as myself.

    Lue: Yeah, I wouldn’t be the guy to do that.

    CJ: Someone, wants to know, for those who maybe don’t know: What’s the main difference between AAWSAP and AATIP? What involvement, if any, did you have with AAWSAP?

    Lue: Well, now I can talk about it because the guy came out. So, Jim Lacatksi is a great guy, super smart. I’ve always said he’s probably the greatest rocket scientist our government had, at the time. Incredibly brilliant gentleman, and also was one hell of a risk taker. So, AAWSAP, think of Ford Motor Company as AAWSAP. And they make a lot of models. They make the Bronco, they make the Crown Victoria, they make the Mustang. Think of AATIP as the Ford Mustang. It is a sub-model built under/within the Ford plant. And it’s a sports car. It’s one of the many different lines of models.

    CJ: There’s that word sports car again.

    Lue: Sports car, right.

    CJ: Bob Lazar reference. (I believe he meant Lazar Sport Model UFO.)

    Lue: So what happens with AAWSAP, think of Ford Motor Company, eventually going out of business, for whatever reason, but the Ford Mustang is so popular that the Ford Mustang continues to be built under its own moniker and continues to be built as the Ford Mustang but there’s no other cars now being built by the mechanic, it’s just the Ford Mustang.

    CJ: So it’s a baby of and the parents died?

    Lue: Yeah. So it started off…look, there would be no AATIP without AAWSAP and without Jim Lacatski. That’s a fact. But when that program went away, AATIP continued. And that’s why you have all the videos out there from the Roosevelt and all these other incidents that will be coming to light and continue to come to light because a lot was done under AATIP. But it was military focused, only. We did not deal with civilian information at all. It was military focused and we did have funding. I’ll leave it at that. I’m not going to say anything to disparage my good friend, Jim. Jim is a good man and he’s done a lot for this country. But I can’t speak for AAWSAP and I’ve said that from day one. As you noticed, I’ve always said, “I can’t speak for AAWSAP [but] one day that guy will come forward and hopefully we can stand shoulder to shoulder and he’ll finally get the credit that he deserves.” But AAWSAP wasn’t AATIP and AATIP wasn’t AAWSAP. I was AATIP, he was AAWSAP and if you want to know more about the AAWSAP stuff, you’d probably have to ask him.

    CJ: Okay, now, you mentioned the word “woo” quite a while ago and just so you know, I don’t…firstly, I don’t use that word because that word is used disparagingly. And also because much of what’s considered pseudoscience becomes science. And also, what you categorize as being paranormal depends on your assumptions of what normal is, and we don’t have a theory of everything, so it’s difficult to say. Given that, what’s your opinion on remote viewing, and I believe you dabbled in that. So I would like to know more about that.

    Lue: Okay, so remote viewing is defined as a human cognitive capability to observe things separated by space and time, in essence. I’m not going to discuss what I’ve done in my career, I’ve done a lot of things in my career for my country. Most of it, as you probably agree, has never seen the light of day and it’s not really germane or relevant to this discussion of UAP. The UAP topic is only one aspect of my career and my service to my country, but the rest is private, unless it doesn’t need to be. I don’t think a discussion on remote viewing has anything to do with UAPs or my time in the AATIP program and I think it’s just a distraction. And I’ll leave it at that.

    (Lue did talk about remote viewing a bit more in this panel discussion)

    CJ: Okay, so this question comes from AWAF: With the phenomenon being so evasive, what level of confidence do we have that global disclosure will be a net positive for engagement with it? As an analogy, we know hornets exist, but poking the hornet’s nest is ill-advised.

    Lue: Can you repeat that, Curt, one more time? I think that’s a really…getting it right, that’s actually a really, really interesting question.

    CJ: With the phenomenon being so evasive, what level of confidence do we have that global disclosure will be a net positive for engagement with it? As an analogy, we know hornets exists, but poking the hornet’s nest is ill-advised.

    Lue: Well, let’s define engagement. Is engagement the same as poking? I don’t think so. International engagement is getting everybody on the same sheet of music about the topic. It’s not necessarily being provocative, it’s not necessarily poking, quote unquote, “the hornet’s nest.” What it is, it’s an acknowledgement that the hornet’s nest exists, and that hornets exist, so we should probably understand them. I’m not at all advocating that we go and poke the hornet’s nest. What I’m advocating is that we need to study the hornet and we need to study where the hornet lives, and how it lives and its relationship to its environment and ultimately, its relationship to us, if any.

    CJ: I think the last time we spoke about trans-medium, that it would go from water to air, back and forth. Is there any evidence of trans-medium with respect to rock? Can it move through solid material?

    Lue: I’ve heard people speculate that. We haven’t seen that but there were some scientific models, specifically a couple of calculations that I was privy to the mathematics, specifically, that indicate if you can get a certain number below a zero, then, quote, unquote, “it can cut through through rock like butter.” But I’m not a math expert and I’m certainly not gonna validate or verify that because I don’t know. All I saw were a bunch of numbers and letters of the alphabet put in front of me (laughs) in a very long strain of what I presumed to be valid equations. But I don’t know. Math for me was a minor. I think I got up to Calc[ulus] III.

    ~~~

    In the Vallee/Davis paper, “A Six-layer Model for Anomalous Phenomena,” the second layer features objects that are, “described as physical and material but they are also described as:

    Sinking into the ground (This would seem to include rock and solid material ~Joe) 

    Shrinking in size, growing larger, or changing shape on the spot

    Becoming fuzzy and transparent on the spot

    Dividing into two or more objects, several of them merging into one object at slow speed (Aguadilla? ~Joe)

    Disappearing at one point and appearing elsewhere instantaneously

    Remaining observable visually while not detected by rada

    Producing missing time or time dilatation

    Producing topological inversion or space dilatation (object was estimated to be of small exterior size/volume, but witness(s) saw a huge interior many times the exterior size)

    Appearing as balls of colored, intensely bright light under intelligent control

    ~~~

    Lue: And, true story, I’ll share this with you. I appreciate math and love certain aspects of math, but I’m not necessarily great at math. And finally, I was going up to Calc III and my professor failed me the first time around. So I had a chance to make it up and I go back to the same professor. And, by the way, my professor really didn’t like me very much and really, I didn’t take it as seriously as I should. And so, time and time again, I’d come in and I wouldn’t do good on the test. And finally, I told him, I said, “Look, I’m having trouble here with this class.” He says, “Yeah, you are.” And he said, “Look, I don’t think this is for you. You’re not a great student in Calc III.” And I said, “No, I agree with you. But you got to pass me because I’m making some decisions in my life and this is really the last class I need to graduate.” And he said, “Well, you’re just not making the standard.”

    CJ: And you intimidated him with their muscles?

    Lue: No, on the contrary, what I told him is that I…I said, “Listen, I don’t like being here any more than you want me being here and I’ll make you a promise: If you fail me again, I promise you I will continue to be here and take your class every single day until you retire.”

    CJ: Oh wow.

    Lue: And he looked at me and he said, “So I guess we have mutual understanding (laughs) that you’re just gonna barely pass.” And I said, “Sir, that’s all I need. I’m not looking for an A, I just need to pass this class and I’ll be out of your hair forever.” And he said, “Okay, we have an agreement then.” And I just barely passed that class. And yeah, it was either Calc II or Calc III, and we made an agreement. I wouldn’t take Calculus anymore for the rest of my life and, there you have it.

    CJ: That number that was less than zero, or could be less than zero, do you happen to remember if it was mass?

    Lue: I have no idea, brother. I know who gave it to me, I don’t want to reveal that person right now.

    CJ: Okay, let’s forget about that.

    Lue: Honestly, by the time they got through the whole…my eyes had rolled in the back of my head about three times. And they were obviously very excited as they were writing these formulas down and said, “Bam! There’s the answer.” And I’m like, “Huh? What? Where?”

    CJ: See, for me, math is what turns me on.

    Lue: I love it. No, don’t get me wrong. I wish…I absolutely love math, it’s just doing it that, for me, is kind of kind of challenging.

    CJ: Okay, so Alien Alcoholic asks: Potentially, have there been biological samples recovered from craft?

    Lue: Let’s rephrase that question. Have there, potentially, been biological samples recovered? Yes. I’m not going to expound any more on that.

    CJ: Right. Right, so let’s forget about the craft.

    Lue: And be careful when I say that. I’m being purposely very open and vague at the same time, right? What does that mean? Well, it means what it means.

    CJ: Senzu Bean: Has he ever considered that when the UAP changes direction or speed, it may actually be warping space time…like certain warp drives I’m sure you’ve heard of? That way, the space time around the UAP is warped and so it’s not technically moving, and thus, the biological entities, if there are one, or any, wouldn’t feel g-forces. Have you considered that?

    Lue: Yeah, it’s right on the money, except for it is moving but the principles of what the question is are right on the money. Yes.

    CJ: And then, I just want to say…I always love when people say this at the end: “Hopefully my question makes sense, as I’m not a native English speaker. Kind Regards.” Hey man, your question makes complete sense.

    Lue: You know, he speaks better English, or she speaks better English than most most English speakers. So congratulations. I understood the question perfectly and it’s a great question. And, yeah.

    CJ: Okay, so this question comes from Steve Cambian of Truth Seekers, and I’ll put a link to his podcast in the description: Given the debate about your involvement with AATIP and your actual role., would you be able to prove your leadership role by releasing tax forms? In short, could you simply release your tax forms to prove your employment, leadership role and your salary for those years?

    Lue: (laughs) Of course I could but tax forms just tell you were working at a particular office, that’s all it does. And, of course, then, people start looking at your salaries and start making all sorts of inferences. The bottom line is that the government has already validated and verified that I work within the USDI. Senator Reid has already validated I worked on AATIP. You had the spokesperson for the Pentagon, Dana White, under Secretary Mattis, already verify that I was working AATIP.

    Lue: You have Jim Lacatski verifying I worked and ran AATIP. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. No, I’m not going to get into a tit for tat. Either that or I’m the world’s greatest clairvoyant, because everything I’ve talked about has come to fruition, to include the release of the videos that are on the 1910, with my signature on it.

    CJ: Both are remarkable.

    Lue: I mean, at this point, if people still question that, then, I don’t know what to tell you. Go get a hobby. No, I’m not gonna sit here at this point in time…there’s an IG evaluation and investigation specifically because of how they mishandled this. And then they come out and they say, “Oh, by the way, we deleted all Lue’s emails.” I mean, if you’re that much of a sucker, and you actually, still, at this point, are at all questioning what my role is, then I don’t know what to tell you. Sorry.

    CJ: Okay, this question comes from Ena: What can we do, personally, to prepare ourselves, and perhaps even others, for a post-disclosure world?

    Lue: You know, hold on a second.

    CJ: Are we taking a break? You need to…

    Lue: No. No, actually, I was trying to find an email that…never mind. I had an email that I’ve never shown but I was about to say, “Here, boom! How’s that for proof?” But no, don’t worry about it, I don’t even want to get into that. You know what? I’m not gonna satisfy anybody’s, at this point, questioning. All that is…and by the way, as time goes on, even more evidence is coming. So, you know,

    CJ: You find it to be a distraction and a waste of time, we have much greater issues?

    Lue: Well, and at this point, it’s just insulting, It’s like, dude, I can’t think for you at this point. I mean, if at this point, you’re still on the fence on that, then find something else to do, because it’s…yeah, it’s…

    CJ: It would be like seeing Obama’s birth certificate and then saying that he’s still from Kenya? You’d be like, “What more do you want from me?”

    LE: Yeah, it’s like, dude, what more do you want? You have the guy who ran the program, the senator himself saying I ran it. I mean, you have the Pentagon saying it. Now you have “60 minutes,” who, by the way, backed it up with General Mattis himself. I’m like, “What more you want?” I mean, you want a video of me going in and out of the office when I was there? Well, you’re not going to get that, you know? Sorry. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of people out there that are still…I consider agent provocateurs. They’re just trying to confuse the situation and for whatever reason. I mean, rather than looking at the last four years and saying, “Wow, look how far we’ve come!” they’d rather go back and, it’s…

    [the_ad_placement]

    CJ: Have you heard of Anjali?

    Lue: I have.

    CJ: Okay, see, people keep telling me to look her up and then many other people keep saying, “Don’t bother, she’s way out there,” which also makes me want to look her up even further. And I think I’ve been on some polls and you’ve been on some polls as who should she take with her as a representative or as one of several representatives for the planet Earth.

    Lue: Well, I never said I’d go with her, first of all, so I don’t know why someone’s using my name in a poll, without my permission, saying that they’ll take me anywhere. No one’s taking me anywhere unless I want to go somewhere. Two, the old saying, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Nothing would make me happier if she can take somebody to a magic cave underground and have communication with with another life form. But, if that’s the case, then what are you waiting for? Why not go now? Just bring a camera crew and go now. You don’t need to make a big deal of this, just go and do it and prove it. We’ve seen this in the community so many times before, with people making these bold claims. And, you know, man I really hope I’m wrong, I’d love to eat my hat. I’ll be the first one…there’s an old saying we have, “If I’m wrong, I will kiss her butt in front of Macy’s window.” Nothing would make me happier than [for] that to be true. But everything about how this is unfolding, doesn’t seem legit to me. It seems showboat. When you have someone sitting on a chair with…well, any ways. Look, I don’t want to be judgmental. Enough people are judgmental about me, I know how it feels. I want to give Anjali a fair shake but you better produce, because if you don’t, you got a lot of people riding on this and all you’re going to do is hurt the cause with some outlandish claim like this. If you can’t prove this outlandish claim, all you are gonna be responsible for is being another one of those people that are tinfoil hat and the reason why this topic was never taken seriously. So, add yourself to the list if you can’t deliver.

    CJ: When I looked at her – and I didn’t look at her much, I just saw a couple videos – I didn’t sense any dishonesty. But I didn’t have anything like a close gander, let’s say. So, you sense some grandstanding or showboating?

    Lue: No, no, look, I’m not gonna judge anybody, I’m not, I’m not. I’m just simply saying that if you’ve got extraordinary claims like that, you’ve got to deliver, you’ve got a responsibility now and you better not have an excuse not to deliver that.

    CJ: Alright, so this question comes from Ayna: What can we do, personally, and even societally, to prepare ourselves and others for a post-disclosure world?

    Lue: I’m not sure we need to prepare at all. I think we’re perfectly prepared. I have faith in human beings that we will look at this from a rational perspective. Our paradigm is challenged every day. We just had, in the media, China launch a hypersonic cruise missile around the world. That’s a change in the way we see ourselves, especially with potential, foreign adversaries. We have our paradigms change every day. People are told that they have cancer every day. People are told that spouses are cheating on them, every day. People are told that they’re pregnant and are gonna have kids, every day. People are told about the death of a loved one, every day. We’re human beings, that’s part of life. I think…I’m not sure there’s anything we can do to prepare. I think just be ourselves and be willing to ask the hard questions and have the patience to find the answers. Let’s not be so quick to jump into some sort of preconceived narrative just because it makes us feel good, right? Because we all want to understand things that we don’t. We all have this natural fear of things we can’t understand. We must be tempted not to create an artificial narrative, just so we feel better. We need to really explore this for what it is and have the courage to do so. That would be my advice. By the way, you do some really good questions, I really appreciate that. Questions that people haven’t asked me before. Yeah man, really good. By the way, let me also caveat here. You’re gonna get…I do have some people that really don’t like me and I’m sure they’re going to take out that hatred on you. So I apologize ahead of time. If anybody is screaming at you, I get some haters in my camp that tend to be rather vocal, so I hope they’re not driving you too crazy. I’ve got a nice little vocal, I almost consider…I call them my chorus, because I know, every time I come out and say anything, like on your show, that chorus is going to come out any minute now. And I can already hear them warming up their voices.

    CJ: The last time we spoke, there were two comments that you said that stood out to me. One was the somber, the somber heard around the world, in a sense.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    CJ: And then you clarified that or you added to that by saying sobering. I was wondering, we can get to that. And then also, you mentioned that the charlatans of the world will be shown to be charlatans. And I, again, don’t know much about this UFO community but people in the comments were saying, “Did he mean Steven Greer?” So, why don’t you comment on that? You can be as diplomatic as you like, I know that you’re relatively a diplomatic person.

    Lue: Yeah. Let me start with somber or sobering. Imagine everything you’ve been taught, whether it’s through Sunday school, or through regular, formal education in school, or what our political leaders have told us and yes, even maybe our mothers and fathers around the dinner table have told us or maybe at bedtime, about who we are, right? Our background and our past. What if all of that turned out to be not entirely accurate? In fact, the very history of our species, the meaning what it means to be a human being and our place in this Universe. What if all that is now in question? What if it turns out that a lot of the things that we thought were one way, aren’t. Are we prepared to have that honest question with ourselves? Are we prepared to recognize that we’re not at the top of the food chain, potentially? That we’re not the alpha predator, that we are maybe somewhere in the middle? It’s interesting because I was having discussion with a friend, not too long ago. A really, really…we call them gray beards in the government. A really, really smart guy. I’m not gonna mention his name, but I was talking to him probably a couple months ago. And this is a guy who was always paid to solve the hard problems for the U.S. government. Cold War. How do we solve that, right? How do we do these big things? How do we go in and beat the Russians at their own game? So this guy I respect tremendously and we had a conversation, and he said, “You know, Lue, mankind’s been around for a little while and for most of that time mankind’s been around, we’ve been smack in the middle of the food chain. We ate a lot of things and a lot of things ate us, and that’s just the bottom line. And about 70,000 years ago, something fundamentally changed, something changed, and our species was instantly catapulted to the very top of our planet, as far as predatory animals.” And now, all of a sudden, we became the most feared, we were the most lethal and the most successful. In fact, most of the large species that existed on this planet went extinct because of us, believe it or not. because we started eating all of it. There were a couple species that did very, very well with our ascension, our immediate ascension. And we brought a couple species with us, the dog is an example, where the dog species benefited greatly with mankind’s ascension as the alpha predator and wound up succeeding very well off of that. That changed the entire global landscape of our planet, almost overnight. Large animals went extinct because of us.

    What if it turns out that there’s another species that is even higher on that ladder than we are? Do we need the social institutions that we have today? Will we need governmental and religious organizations that we have today, if it turns out that there is something else or someone else that is technologically more advanced and perhaps, from an evolutionary perspective, more advanced? Have we been wasting our time, all this time? Or, are we doing exactly what we’re supposed to be doing? Does it turn out that mankind is in fact, just another animal in the zoo? Or…because we thought ourselves as a zookeeper before, but maybe we’re just another exhibit inside the zoo? What would that mean to us? So, when I say sombering and sobering, I mean that there’s gonna come a point in this conversation where we’re gonna have to do a lot of reconciling with ourselves, whatever that means, from whatever philosophical background you have. This is going to impact every single one of us the same and yet equally and yet differently. And I think that’s important. You know, do we find ourselves in a situation where history may have to be rewritten? So that’s what I meant.

    Now, as far as the charlatans, I’m not going to give any attention to individual charlatans because they already have enough attention. They know exactly who I’m referring to. These are individuals who have made a cottage industry, a career, of taking people’s hard earned money and deceiving them. And not only deceiving them, but having them sign non-disclosure agreements to make sure they don’t tell the world that they’ve been deceived. And preying upon people who, for whatever reason, believe in them. People who say, “My narrative is the only narrative, and anybody else who tells you otherwise is trying to hurt you. I have all the answers. I have the solution.” Anybody who says that, I think is a charlatan and I think we need to be very, very mindful of that, they’re very dangerous. And they’re dangerous for several reasons. Because if they’re lying to you about that, they’re probably lying to you about other things in their life, their past life and their current life. Which may or may not come to light at some point. These are people who have taken advantage of people for a very long time and you have to be careful.

    CJ: What else are the motivations of some of these charlatans or potentially could be their motivation, other than financial or influence?

    Lue: Well, look at any religious charlatan, it’s the same thing. It’s a cult of personality. It’s somebody who, for whatever reason, thinks it’s all about them and they manage the narrative. It goes to the basic core of pride and ego in human beings and narcissistic behavior. Real, true, deep psychological issues. Some sociopathic, to be honest with you.

    CJ: Is there any gold in that rubble?

    Lue: I’m sorry?

    CJ: Is there any gold in that rubble, as in, is all of what they’re saying, some of these charlatans, we don’t have to name names.

    Lue: No, I think there’s always fibers of truth in a blanket of lies because that’s what holds it together. There are some aspects of truth. The problem is, when you take that truth and you distort it. There’s people in history that were very good at convincing large amounts of people that they have the answer, right? I don’t need to go back into history to say which ones those are but you have characters like Jim Jones, Heaven’s Gate is an example. Even Hitler, to some degree, where they were very charismatic people who got people in this web and they didn’t realize it until it was too late. And I just think when you’re creating all these shell organizations and pass throughs, and paying people off to do things for you to deceive other people, I think is problematic. Again, I’m not gonna say…I’m not gonna mention names, I think most people are smart enough to see through it. My concern are those people who are already sucked into it. It becomes a cult and it becomes brainwashing and manipulation and that’s my concern, because it gives a terrible name to the effort. And making false accusations…I think is…there’s an old saying and I’ll see if I can remember it: Ye be careful of the knife ye uses to stab at the back of others, for surely that knife will be used against you in the future, or at some point. Anyway, being just, you know, right karma. Karma is a bitch (laughs), be careful. Mother Nature has a vote and she’s got a way of always squaring things up at the end, and that’s what I’ve seen, anyways.

    CJ: Remember earlier, I was asking you, “What can we do as a culture?” I think, based on some of your statements, what we can do is something like we’ve already been doing, which is, keep talking about it so that we can de stigmatize it. I know that I don’t particularly like the word destigmatization, I think it’s been taken by certain people but essentially to destigmatize. However, there does seem to be the tendency from those who are believers in or who are part of the UFO community, who deride people like…see… Neil deGrasse Tyson and other skeptics deride the UFO community and I don’t think they should do that.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    CJ: But then I also don’t think that they should be met with condescension as well because I think that that comes back at you. I think that love and extending an arm and an olive branch is what will…

    Lue: Curt, you’re right, you’re absolutely right. That’s a good point. Let me talk a little bit about Mr. Neil deGrasse Tyson. First of all, he’s one of the few shows that I used to watch a lot. I loved his perspective. And let’s talk about his background. This is a person who was a bit of a maverick. He cut his teeth and became…really made his bones by supporting and defending a theory that really was a hypothesis at the time, an outlandish hypothesis. And that was, there were these supermassive objects in our Universe that were so dense that they created a gravity well, they created a black hole in space time where light itself couldn’t even escape. And although we can’t see it directly, we can’t prove its existence, we think they’re there, right? Now, a lot in the scientific community said, “That’s hogwash! It’s a theoretical anomaly that isn’t real.” And yet, Neil deGrasse Tyson did exactly that. He supported the hypothesis and the theory that there are these things you’ll never be able to see with the naked eye but they fundamentally…they’re there, and they’re hundreds of millions of light years away.

    Well, it’s funny because that same spirit used to prove something you can never see, that is there, for some reason, he seems to have forgotten that in this topic because we’re talking about the same thing. We’re talking about something that is hard to see directly, sometimes, but we can see its impact on the environment around it, and to some degree, maybe warping space time. But it’s not hundreds of millions of miles away, it’s right here. And I don’t understand how you can support, on one hand, the scientific study and research into something called a black hole and not be open minded to something like UAP. To me, it’s the same thought process. Now, going back to what you say, as far as ridiculing them? No, we shouldn’t ridicule them. What we need to do is help them see the contradiction in their argument and not in a mean and spiteful way, either. I think we need to have a conversation because we need people like Neil deGrasse Tyson, we need people who are very smart to look at this problem and not just reject it because of stigma and taboo.

    ~~~

    Neil deGrasse Tyson was accused of sexual misconduct by 4 women. He’s keeping all his jobs.

    ~~~

    [the_ad]

    Lue: But the problem with the scientific community today is that they’ve rejected science in favor of scientism and scientism is no different than any other religion. It’s where you are so married to the scientific methodologies, that you no longer can accept new hypotheses and theories, and you reject them flatly. And I think that’s problematic because, as I’ve said before, every single principle of science today, whether it’s a theory, or a law of science that we accept as just a normal part of everyday life in science, started off as someone’s wacky, zany idea, way back when. Everything! And so, I don’t understand how we continue to find ourselves in the same hole every time. We keep saying, “Well now, that’s impossible. But, dammit, every time you say that, we get proven wrong. Haven’t you learned your lesson? Haven’t you taken your notes from the U.S. Patent Office when they said that bold claim that now everything in the world has been invented in a few years and there’s no need for a U.S. Patent Office anymore?

    CJ: Right, right.

    Lue: I mean, how short sighted can you possibly be? That’s the antithesis of scientific pursuit and endeavor. And, I think, if you were to ask me my true feelings on this, which again, I don’t offer very often: Science and religion, when you are standing at their base, they could not be any farther apart. Think of a pyramid. Go into The Great Pyramid of Giza, and standing on one side of the pyramid and say, “This is science!” And then, walking around all the way through this other pyramid and say, “This is Faith, this is religion.” And the two could not be further apart from each other. And yet, when you start to climb that pyramid, on whichever side you go on, they start to get closer and closer together. In fact, at some point, at the very top, the difference between science and religion are indistinguishable. They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are together, they’re one, they’re one in the same. And in fact, I think part of the problem is that in science and in faith, we’re asking two fundamental different questions. This is why the two don’t get along down at the base of the pyramid. This is why they seem so opposite. Because one is asking how and the other is asking why and they’re two different questions. And that’s why the two don’t seem to comport with one another. But ironically enough, the further you go up the ladder, the more you realize they actually require each other, they actually lean on each other, they actually support each other, and at the very top, there’s no difference between science and religion. They become one and they support each other, I think, anyways, that’s my perspective from from what I’ve seen in life.

    CJ: You know, you mentioned a phrase, it’s a phrase I don’t particularly like.

    Lue: I say a lot of things that people don’t like so I apologize, Curt, ahead of time.

    CJ: No, no. I apologize if I’m about to offend you. It’s, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” The reason I don’t like that is because people like Neil deGrasse Tyson, any skeptic will say that any claim that they’ve already deemed as being untrue. And even Dr. Bryan Keating, who is a friend, and he almost won the Nobel prizes. He’s an experimentalist physicist. He said, “I don’t ask my graduate students, ‘Go find the extraordinary evidence,’ it’s not a different class of evidence that’s called extraordinary. Also, what’s the extraordinary evidence that any of us are conscious? There’s actually zero evidence that you can point to, scientifically, outside of what people say. And then, well, what are you gonna take what people say? Well, you could just ask a computer, ‘Are you conscious?’ and so on and so on.” So that’s why I don’t particularly like that phrase.

    Lue: Well, I don’t disagree with you, I think that’s a really good point. I think I was taking it more in the vernacular, right? So, if you’re going to say something has been substantiated by observation, over and over again, multiple times to substantiate x equals three, right? And now you’re going to come out and say, “No, actually, x equals four,” then you are going to need evidence that is beyond what it currently is available to prove that, because all the evidence right now is suggesting x equals three and yet now you are claiming x equals four. Well, it is, by definition, extra-ordinary, the ordinary claim being x equals three, right? In simple algebra. But now you’re making an ex-tra or beyond ordinary claim that x does not equal three, it equals four. So therefore, you’re going to need beyond ordinary evidence, beyond what showing x equals three, to prove now your theory that x equals four. And so, from my perspective, when I say extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence, I don’t necessarily mean perhaps the way a lot of people mean it. I just mean it’s beyond, just like the word normal versus paranormal, by definition, extra ordinary, extraordinary. But I see your point, and I think you’re right. I think part of the problem is that we get too comfortable in the current understanding of our current paradigm and we’re not willing to challenge, sometimes, very simple things.

    Case in point is I just had this conversation not too long ago, publicly, about fractals. They’ve been in front of us all along, ever since we were living in caves. And yet, it’s only recently realized that that may be part of the secrets of the Universe, right? That fractals exist everywhere. They exist physically, they exist even from a psychological perspective, the way we relate to one another. And it’s been in front of us all…it’s obvious, it’s not really extraordinary at all. It’s actually blatantly obvious, and we just never saw it. So yeah, that’s a good point. I think you’re right, and maybe I need to rephrase that in the future. I’ll consider that because I think you may be right. Maybe that’s not entirely a good way to go about it. You know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Maybe we’re beyond that in the conversation. So great, thanks for sharing that with me. And no, by the way, you did not insult me at all. In fact, I appreciate that a lot.

    CJ: Okay. Thanks, man. Rooter Router says, “Great show! Can you ask Lue the following? Based upon what you’ve learned, Lue, would you consider yourself to be an idealist or a materialist? And if you are unsure what those words mean?”

    Lue: No, I know what they are. Is there an Option C (laughs)?

    CJ: Which would be what? A mix?

    Lue: Can it be both? Or neither?

    CJ: That’s something I’ve been wondering. Is there a duality between those two? There’s plenty of dualities in math and physics where you think it’s the option between two but turns out that they’re equivalent ways of describing a system.

    Lue: Yeah, exactly. I’m not sure it’s an either or, I’m not sure they’re mutually exclusive. My background was science. In science, I found my solace, which I enjoyed.

    ~~

    “I fell in love with science, because where there’s science, where there’s mathematics, there’s truth. “I often tell people, there’s a whole universe around you, and if you know how it works, it will give you a better appreciation of what life is about.”

    ~Lue Elizondo – by Billy Cox – An Excellent Read

    ~~~

    Lue: I grew up kind of an angry young kid, had some some tough times since a kid. But science to me was unwavering. She was always there for me, she never lied to me. And so, I get lost in science. And I do believe in the scientific method. It works. Is it perfect? No, but it’s the best thing that we got right now that we know to test and apply theories. But at the same time, there’s something more, you said about human consciousness, you can’t prove it. There’s no mathematical formula, no physical evidence to prove consciousness and yet here we are having a conversation. So, I don’t think the two are mutually…I don’t consider myself a materialist or an idealist. Like I said, I make fun of the fact that I love humanity, it’s humans I don’t like, right? How is that possible, right? Because humanity is a collective of all the humans and yet. But, I’m probably a little bit of both. I think there’s an indelible aspect to a human being that transcends physicality. We have a body, obviously, and we have a brain, and our brain is inextricably tied, for metabolic processes to survive, to the body. The heart has to pump blood to get blood to the brain, otherwise the brain dies. And in the same respect, the brain is regulating all the autonomic processes for the body. So breathing, which is automatic, thank God for most of us, anyways, and heartbeat and temperature and whatnot.

    So the brain is a biological organ that is inextricably tied to the overall vehicle, which is the body and that’s organic as well. But there’s probably something more to the human being. There’s probably something more that is not necessarily physical. Because a computer has a processor, a computer has a body, right? The laptop I’m talking to you on right now, it’s got a processor that’s thinking, if you will, for the computer. But it’s not a conscious, living being, it’s not a sentient being. So the question is, what is that extra component, that extra ingredient that makes us human, that makes us a living, breathing, not only animal, but truly human? What separates us from everything else on this planet? And there’s that third ingredient [that] can be described potentially in cultures as the soul or the id or the chi or, you know, put your nom du jour you want on there. But I think a lot of people agree that there’s something different.

    Case in point, the notion of love. You can’t really describe it, it’s hard to describe. You can’t see it, you can’t touch it and taste it. But it’s there and it motivates a lot of people’s actions. In fact, love, to some degree, actually works against individual survival, and yet, a mother’s instinct to throw herself in front of a train to save her child is almost reflexive. There’s something there that recognizes the value of human life, human dignity. I could be in a car accident and lose use of my arms and my legs but I’m still Lue Elizondo. I could suffer a traumatic brain injury and have a severe TBI (traumatic brain injury), and be mentally impaired, but I’m still Lue Elzondo. What makes Lue Elizondo, Lue, is something a little bit different, something that you can’t really put your finger on. And so, back to this duality, materialist versus idealist. I’m probably a little bit of both because I believe in science but I also know that there’s limitations to science, and there’s limitations to human beings. And there’s limitations to you and me and everybody else. And that’s okay. And they’re aspects to being human that are probably, potentially, more human than human, to use an old cliche.

    So, great question. If I can ask you, Curt, a question I never asked you, just take a break here for a minute and ask you: What got you into this? Why did you want to get into this topic and have this conversation with your background? I mean, I suspect you have your reasons, but I’d love to know why?

    CJ: Originally, I was what people would categorize as an adamant atheist, and that was recently, too, just a few years ago. And I’m not saying I’m a theist now but I’m not an atheist. And just so you know, some atheists will say they don’t believe in God because, well, the concept of God is velutinous and amorphous, how do you pin it down? Well, then technically, you can’t say you’re an atheist because you can’t be anti, what’s cloud-like, you find yourself being cloud-like. (I’m struggling to hear if he really said cloud-like but that’s what it sounds like).

    Lue: You can’t be against nothing (laughs).

    CJ: So, either way I was speaking with someone who told me. “You know, aliens exist” and I gave him my standard spiel, which was, “Well, why do they look like us? It’s too human. It came out, the reports of aliens spike every time there’s a movie, so it seems culturally related.” The standard skeptic response.

    Lue: Yeah, anthropomorphism, etc., yeah.

    CJ: Right. And also, look, given our exponential curve for technological progress, why do these craft seem all alike? Now, of course, they’re varied in terms of shape and size. But still, they’re recognizable as craft. And let’s say you’re coming from a planet far away, then even if you were to travel there, time is…you can travel there almost instantaneously but thousands of years may have passed, and so then your technology would have increased.” But I had the standard, skeptical response. And then he said, “Curt, just watch this.” He sent me a few videos and I watched them and then I was…I think I’ve said this before…if I have any skill, it’s not math or physics, it’s body language. I watch people’s body language like a hawk, and I can tell when they’re insecure about a certain aspect of what they’re saying, when they don’t feel intelligent enough, when they feel intimidated, when they feel like they have to…well, you can continue on the list. And I didn’t see deception in what I saw. And so that got me interested and I decided to speak to Jeremy Corbell because I was a filmmaker. I still categorize myself as that. And he was one and still is. So I was like, “Okay, let me speak to Jeremy, he has a movie on Bob Lazar.”

    And since then, well, I’ve been interested in it because of the physics, but I’m also interested in the deep mysteries of the world. And it seems like UFOs tie in to them. And even if they don’t, it’s still incredibly informing. So, that’s my interest in it. And luckily, or unluckily, I don’t have a scornful, despising mind like most of the scientific community. I don’t look upon the subject with ridicule. In fact, I don’t particularly like when people ridicule other people. I think that’s an indication they should examine themselves for what they’re holding to be a self-evident truth and question their own motivations for believing in it. Because if there’s an emotion attached to it, then there’s some unconscious motivation for holding that belief that isn’t purely a dispassionate assessment of the evidence. So that’s my reason.

    Lue: Very well said. Let me ask you a further question, if I may then. Not that I’m interviewing you. This is actually a question for your audience, too, but I can’t talk to your whole audience other than addressing you, so, I’ll address you. We look in terms of everything from a humanistic perspective, and we want to make sense from nonsense. It’s just kind of in our DNA, right? When we are talking about the topic of UAP, I think everybody deep down inside has this innate desire for it to quote, “make sense.” Put it in a neat little box and it makes sense to us. The problem is, the more we talk about UAPs, the more we exchange ideas, and then the more we begin to formulate our own opinions about UAPs. And so, what happens when the topic of UAP, the truth, doesn’t comport? Because we’re all doing this, right now, subconsciously. Subconsciously, every person does it. We are creating these little boxes that we want to check off, regarding this topic of…it’s from outer space, it’s from inner-dimension, it’s this, and they want this and they can do that, and they can do today.

    CJ: I see what you’re saying.

    Lue: And we are building those boxes without even realizing it. So, when we ask the questions, we’re actually asking the questions in a way to check those boxes that we’ve already made up, psychologically, in our brain and in our subconscious, right. We have to avoid doing that. And it’s so natural that we don’t even realize we’re doing it. How do you avoid the temptation to ask, really, the big question without being tempted to fill in the little boxes? You know, a lot of the questions your wonderful audience has asked, may not even realize, but they’re trying to check those boxes that they’ve made for themselves in their brain. They’ve preconceived these little boxes that they must have an answer to this box. Because this box then relates to this and this and this and this gives me a bigger, overall picture and the answer that I’m looking for. But, what if this is even far more bizarre than that? How do we ask a question to something we don’t even know what questions to ask? Meaning, maybe it’s not even in the realm of our ability to really get to the root of this because we’re looking at everything from a human perspective, human motivation, human interest, human desire, fears. You know, what if it’s something completely different?

    And so, in essence, we need to avoid creating these little boxes, prematurely, in our mind. Which is hard, because that’s what we do as a species in everything that we do, right (laughs)? Take dating, for example. When you go on a date with somebody, what’s the first thing you do? Do I like them? Are we compatible? Do we like the same things? Do we like to eat the same dietary? Am I a vegan? They’re a meat eater. You know, these little boxes that we put in our brain, you know, already, before you’ve even asked the question. We have these these little voids that you want to fill. And the question is, how do we avoid that temptation? How do we pull ourselves out of a human paradigm to ask the questions that maybe aren’t human questions at all? I don’t know. I just offer that up to you because…

    CJ: That’s a great point. There’s a term for that, it’s called enthymemes. Have you heard of that?

    Lue: No, no, please explain.

    CJ: It’s just an unstated assumption. You don’t realize you’re making it when you’re asking a question or putting forward a statement. So, for example, let’s imagine worms. They see humans and they just conceive of humans as godlike. Then they would ask, “Well, they must eat the best dirt. What dirt do they eat?” They don’t realize they’re asking the wrong question.

    Lue: (laughs) Exactly! Precisely what my point is! So, what do you call it, enthymeme?

    CJ: E-N-T-H-Y-M-E-M-E. If you want a fun physics one, which I could say in like twenty seconds, Ed Witten, so one of the world’s greatest physicists, said…no-go theorem. So you can’t have a particle that is massless and has greater than half spin and also carry a charge. That’s Lorentz covariant, which means it follows Einstein’s equations. Okay. Which seems like it means there’s no such particle as the graviton because graviton has spin, too, and is mass-less. Okay. However, this unstated assumption, that you don’t realize and even Ed Witten didn’t realize he was making it, was that the graviton is in the same space time.

    Lue: Right.

    CJ: And so, this is one of the reasons that there’s this AdS/CFT correspondence, where you have holography. You’ve heard of the holographic principle?

    Lue: Yeah, absolutely. Sure. Sure, I follow them.

    CJ: Because it seems like, well, there’s a correspondence between CFT, so, Conformal Field Theory, and then having gravity on the boundary of that, or vice versa. So gravity could be somewhere else and there’s a correspondence between those…

    Lue: Correct, Correct, Correct.

    CJ: But it’s actually extremely tricky to extract that from the statement that you can’t have a particle that is of greater than spin 1/2 and massless and so on and so on. It’s difficult to see the assumption in that statement. So that’s what an enthymeme is.

    Lue: Yeah, that’s fantastic. Yeah, I appreciate that, thank you, Curt, for sharing that. If anything, that was worth, totally me being here (laughs). I really appreciate that.

    CJ: Oh, man. I feel so relaxed with you and I’m so honored that you’re spending some time with me, man.

    Lue: Well, it’s collective, right? I mean, you’ve got a great audience, you’re asking great questions and I almost feel like this is like a fireside chat. If we could all just be sitting together out here in Wyoming and eating around a fire, this is exactly what I’d be spending my time doing. I wish I could do this more often, I really do. Unfortunately, much of my time is committed to other endeavors within this effort. But I think this is important, because ultimately, look, we’re going to solve this mystery together, all of us and this isn’t going to be up to Lue. It’s not going to be up to Curt. It’s not going to be up to, you know (scoffs), Greer, or anybody else. It’s up to all of us and that old saying…what was it? I saw it recently, somebody, a couple things. I saw one really neat on the internet with somebody who was being angry and someone said, “Come, let us share smoke by the fire.” It’s an old, kind of an indigenous proverb, right? Saying, “Hey, let’s share smoke at the fire. Let’s stop grinding the axes. Let’s put our differences aside and let’s come together.” I like that.

    Another thing, too, by the way…I don’t know who does it…it’s completely off topic and random but I’m going, since I’ve got a little bit of time here, I’m going to say it anyways. There is an artist that has been drawing me and I gotta tell you, I don’t know if he likes me or hates me (It’s mostly negative. ~Joe), but man, it is amazing artwork, man. This person has somehow managed to capture…it’s kind of like a comic-book style and he usually draws me with these tiny little beady eyes.

    ~~~

    https://twitter.com/a01744/status/1458434502930358280

    ~~~

    CJ: What’s their name?

    Lue: I don’t know! I don’t know. I’ve seen it a few times. I don’t know if it’s like a Japanese anime style but it’s really neat, though. And again, I don’t know if they’re if they hate me, or they love me or indifferent.

    CJ: I’m pretty sure it’s a positive feeling. They wouldn’t spend so much time…

    Lue: But man, I gotta tell you, [a] really really talented artist man. I actually screen grabbed a couple of those and just saved them and showed my wife. I said, “Man, look at this. This is really clever.” One of them is, it’s (laughs), I guess, jokingly, you know,  all the work I’ve done in the government and then all of a sudden now I’m being assigned a UFO program and there’s this kind of, you know, reaction, which actually wasn’t too far from the truth (laughs). But, just really, really talented. So a big shout out to whoever you are out there. Again, whether you’re a fan or a hater, know that I’m your fan, either way, so you’re very talented at artwork.

    CJ: If you find the person’s name or person if you are watching this, just leave some comments and I’ll put your link in the description as well.

    Okay, I got to get to some more SuperChat and audience questions. They’re eager. Do It Yourself Craft asks: What’s his take on the alien abduction experience?

    ~~~

    Lue: Interesting, they’re fascinating, but they’re just that. They’re an experience. And with every person who talks about how these things may be here for peaceful purposes and, you know, just because they’ve never attacked us, means that they’re benevolent, there’s just as many people who are terrified and report the opposite experience. I’ve said this before, for [the] record: Look, if you take a member of my family against their will somewhere, that’s kidnapping. And God forbid, if you touch them, now that’s assault. Both are criminal offenses, from my perspective. I don’t care what your intent is. Bottom line. So, if abductions are happening, well the word of abduction itself is a criminal act, right? It’s kidnapping. It’s not taking you on a date, it’s abduction. If that indeed is happening. The problem is, it’s very hard to quantify and qualify that aspect of the conversation because at the end of the day, you’re just relying on eyewitness testimony. There’s no gun camera footage, there’s no radar data to suggest that. It’s just someone’s personal experience. And when you do that, you have to consider all sorts of stuff. You know, you have to…you’re now talking about aspects that involve psychology, aspects that involve sociology and aspects that involve philosophy.

    ~~~

    Excellent article by Ralph Blumenthal

    Alien Nation: Have Humans Been Abducted by Extraterrestrials?

    we have cattle mutilations, predominantly? We don’t hear much about sheep, and chickens, and so on. Why is it not on other livestock? Well, I’m sure there’s a minor amount, but why is it predominantly on cattle? Or at least, predominantly, we hear about it on cattle?

    ~~~

    ~~~

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    Lue: Yeah, we don’t know why. It could be something as simple as just, you know, the bovine genetic sequencing. It could be the fact that you can put a genetic tracer in an animal and follow the natural mutations of the genetic sequencing, the genotype and phenotype manifestations over time. You know, if I were to, let’s say, in the 1950s, put a marker, a specific marker in a specific herd of cow or head of cattle, and then watch as that genetic marker changes over time, there’s all sorts of things you can find. It could also be that certain animals are like canaries in a mine. They seem to be more sensitive, [for] whatever reason, to environmental changes or something to that effect. And so, you know, that is the animal of choice. We don’t really know and there’s still a lot of debate on what that is, what cattle mutilations are. Some will speculate that it’s UAP-related, some will speculate that no, it’s some sort of secret government program for tracking biological weapons testing, others opine that it’s something completely unrelated, it’s natural, it’s caused by coyotes and natural attrition of the herd. We don’t really know, but assuming, let’s just assume for a moment, I hate to say that word…let’s presume, because you know what assuming  does, right? So we’ll presume here instead of assume. Let’s just presume that it does have some sort of relationship to UAP, for example. Why would we, why would anybody, why would anything be interested in one particular species? There’s all sorts of reasons why. It could be that there is a special susceptibility to certain things. Again, going back to the canary analogy, right, that for whatever reason. It also could be that they’re widely available. I’m living here in Wyoming, there’s more head of cattle here in Wyoming than are people. That’s a true statement. We have more cows than we have people.

    CJ: That’s one of the hypotheses I was thinking about. Have you heard of The MacCready explosion? If you look at the amount of any animal, by mass, which one is most plentiful on the planet, it’s not humans, it’s actually cattle. Or cattle is second to humans. So I’m wondering, how much of it is just because there’s so many of them that…just by the law of numbers?

    Lue: Well, there’s a lot. Huge numbers, and they’re all over the world and a lot of them that are really remote. So, if you wanted to get in and get out and do something, a cow is a pretty easy target. Cheetahs run really fast, right? And alligators bite (both laugh).

    CJ: Those are great points, yeah. Okay, so before I rudely interrupted you, you were saying there was the reason of being plentiful, of being, perhaps, susceptible, like a canary in the coal mine, and then you were going on. What was the next?

    Lue: Yeah, it could also be that they have been…so cows are one of the few species that have been specifically manipulated by human beings. You know, there was a time where our species hunted something called an Aurochs and Aurochs was predominant all over the planet, and we hunted them, frankly, to extinction. What you see now in the domesticated cattle is really a crossbreed. It was made by, it was invented by humans. It’s kind of the animal that never was, to some degree. We’ve crossbred a lot of stuff so we now have this domesticated livestock that we used as a food source. Maybe there’s something in that? Maybe there’s something significant or specific, as it relates to that? We could go on and on, frankly, we could spend another two and a half hours just speculating on, why cows. There’s a lot of different reasons why, potentially, you know, the fact that it is a primary food source for a lot of people on this planet, does that have something to do with it? Is there something relevant to that, that is of key interest?

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: “I had the privilege of speaking to a veterinarian, up here in Montana, of all places. And he was a former official, and he’s a veterinarian, and he’s called a lot of times to these cattle mutilations. And he is absolutely, 100% convinced that it is something that is not natural, and that is being done. Farmers will report lights in the sky. Later on, they discover these animals with what appears to be cauterization of the wounds. A lot of sexual organs, particularly, removed. And then some really other unique pieces to the puzzle where, you know, maybe one tiny bone is missing in the entire animal. And that’s it. Like it was just removed for the sake of removing it and studying it. And so, yeah, I mean, it’s something that’s interesting that’s been around for a while. A lot of people have…you’re not the first to ask me that, that’s for sure.

    CJ: SR asks: Not sure if this has been asked: Has Lue ever heard of Zimmernacht Whistleblower, or under any other name appearing on Reddit? And if yes, is there any truth to it at all?

    Lue: Well, I don’t read Reddit, very often. Again, if I want to abuse myself, I’ll just get on Twitter. They do a great job doing it, I don’t need any more (laughs). And then second of all, no, Zimmernacht, I’m not aware of. I’m not familiar with that unless there’s some sort of vernacular that is also referencing that. I have no idea about that.

    CJ: Stojan Carlosic asks: What does Lue think of the set of documents named Allies of Humanity?

    Lue: I’ve read a lot of documents. I don’t necessarily know about “Allies of Humanity,” what that is, unless it is something that involves different species that have been alleged to exist. I don’t know, I don’t know what that is. (Lue shared a panel with Marshall Summers this past summer. Summers wrote/channeled The Allies of Humanity series of books. You can read a full transcript of that very interesting discussion. Lue probably didn’t recognize the name.)

    CJ: Matt wants to know: What are…this goes back to the worms asking which dirt demons eat.

    Lue: (laughs) Great analogy, by the way. Only the very best dirt.

    CJ: So, what questions should we, as the audience, as myself, perhaps even as you, which questions should we be asking that we aren’t?

    Lue: Man! Well, you’re doing it. This is it! This is exactly why we’re having this conversation, right? To figure that out.

    CJ: So when you were saying that we have some unstated assumptions and we have boxes, you’re not saying that you’re immune from that?

    Lue: No! No, I need your help, too, to break out of that. No, absolutely I’m not immune to it. No, absolutely not. I have the same bias as everybody else. No, this is something we need to figure out, collectively. No, this is not a trick question I’m asking and then say, “Ha ha! I have the the answer.” No, no, no, I’ve got the same challenge you do, we’re in the same boat. We need to figure this out. And this is why I say we need academics and scientists and everybody else on board and philosophers and everybody, because they’re the ones that are going to help us figure out how to do that. I’m just a dude, I’m just one guy. I might not be super dumb, but I’m not necessarily the smartest guy, either. I don’t have the answers to all these things.

    CJ: You’re extremely, extremely…you’re extremely bright, man. It’s humbling.

    Lue: Oh, no, no. I appreciate it, but no, I can assure you… (laughs)

    CJ: Speaking about humbling, when you mention the word sober and somber, to me, the reason why is not because we’re more special than we think we are, but we’re much less.

    Lue: Yeah.

    CJ: So then I was wondering…Is perhaps another motivation for people, that wolf pack around you, not just a financial motivation, not just national security, but also perhaps self preservation? Because…

    Lue: Absolutely, self preservation! Yes, that’s a huge part of it! In fact, it also goes to pride and ego and self preservation. I mean, these are innate components of the human psyche and we need to be aware of it. And a lot of people don’t even realize they’re that way. You know, it comes from a place of self preservation, ultimately, survival. Control, and to some degree, even resources. It’s almost part of our character. You look at any any type of society, whether you have a society where you have a monarchy, a king or a queen, making authoritative decisions, or even to some degree, presidents or, you know, popes. And again, I’m not against any of this, I’m just simply saying that we, as a species, we always want answers, we always want someone to have the final say and narrative because we like our life to be defined. When you look at the way an average city organizer…the reason why they make our streets and grids north and south, east and west is, because subconsciously, it helps us know where we are, at any given time. We do have a compass, right? Even a watch tells us where we are in time, right? We are a species that doesn’t like…we fear the unknown. And when you look at Carl Sagan’s pale blue dot for the very first time, and you realize that everything in existence that we know of has occurred on that tiny little, pale blue dot, which is, three pixels large in the vastness and vacuum of space, in just one ray of light from the sun, that makes people pretty uncomfortable. The fact that, you know, other than towards the center of the Earth, there’s no such thing as up or down. There’s really no such thing as left…if you go left, far enough, you come back right again. Up is relative. Up just means I’m moving away from the center of the Earth. That’s all. There is no real up or down. We don’t know if we’re flying sideways somewhere in the Milky Way, in the Universe, or if we’re upside down. There is no upside down.

    My point is that when you really look at the Universe for what it is, we have no idea where we are. None. We are spinning in an obscure, spiral arm of some obscure galaxy we happen to call the Milky Way that’s on a collision course with another galaxy called Andromeda, in the next 250 million years or so. But in reality, we have no idea where the hell we are or where we’re going or where we’ve been. And so, we build these anecdotes and histories and whatnot because it helps us make sense from nonsense and that’s what we like as human beings. That’s why when you put people in a solid white room or even the furniture’s white, most people will report not only being disorientated but being uncomfortable because there’s no relativeness within the room. In fact, that’s why death is so scary for so many people because it’s the great unknown, and it’s something that, as a species, we fear a lot. Nobody wants to know that they’re lost. That’s why safety and security is so important in a lot of relationships, right? People always say, “I just want safety and security, that’s all. I want to know that that person is going to be there for me and I can rely upon them,” right? They want stability, they want an anchor. And that’s not a bad thing, that’s who we are. But we also have to realize there’s a lot of things in this Universe that are gonna force you to reevaluate. And that’s really, really uncomfortable. Once you really realize that you are truly, we are alone out here in the Universe, from a human perspective, right? I’m not saying from a living thing. I’m saying from a human perspective. That’s scary for a lot of people.

    To the best of our knowledge, we are the only humans in the universe. And of course, we have a bunch of animals we can play with on our little planet that we call Earth and it kind of makes us feel good. But, it’s looking more and more like every single day that there’s more out there. It’s just not human. And then the question is, “Okay, well, what are their intentions? What are their motivations? Do they want to work with us or do they want to subjugate us? Or, are we going to be tomorrow’s dinner menu, right? All these things go through the minds of people. And they’re good questions, and questions, frankly, we don’t have an answer for yet. And that makes people really, really uncomfortable and unsettled. And I think we need to be aware of it.

    So back to your question: Am I subject to the same box bias that you are and everybody else? You’re damn right I am! Yeah. And we need to figure out how to look at this topic…look at, potentially, a non-human topic, through non-human eyes, is what I’m trying to say. We may have to take our human glasses off that kind of filter everything in human terms.

    CJ: How do we do that?

    Lue: Well, that’s my question, right? How do we do that? This is exactly why we’re having this conversation. What could people be doing? Having that conversation. Exactly. That’s exactly what we could be doing, and we are doing.

    CJ: Can I add to what you said, if you don’t mind, like a thirty second…it’s on point, hopefully. This Pale Blue Dot, which I imagine is something…I don’t know about it. I imagine it zooming out and seeing how insignificant we are relative to…

    Lue: So let me tell you about the Pale Blue Dot. There’s a couple of pictures that have really, really…if you really want to look at something that’s pretty amazing. The first image is called the Pale Blue Dot. Carl Sagan, I think it was the Voyager – it might have been the Pioneer…I think it was the Voyager spacecraft [that] was leaving Earth’s orbit, by somewhere around Moon and then it turned around and took a picture of the Earth.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: And then, as it was billions and billions of miles away, as it’s about to leave the solar system, so to speak. It was actually the inner solar system, but to the best of our knowledge at the time, it was the solar system. This is before the heliosphere and whatnot. He had a great idea and said, “Why don’t we turn that spacecraft around and take one more picture of Earth and see what it looks like?” And so, he did. And NASA turned it around and took a picture of Earth. And at first they couldn’t find it until one scientist pointed it out and said, “What’s that?” And you should look it up on Google. It’s pretty amazing. Look at it with the original photo, not zoomed in. And you all of a sudden get this sense of vastness and most will agree, maybe even a little insecurity because you’re like, “Whoa, that’s a fragile little tiny ball in the middle of nowhere.”

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: And then another picture is taken by…it was the Lunar Orbiter. It might have been the Apollo 11 mission where they’re rendezvousing with the lunar lander. And in there, there’s a picture of the lunar lander, with a picture of Earth behind it.

    ~~~

    ~~~

    Lue: And in that picture, you realize, for the first time, that all of humanity, everything that has ever existed, everything that anybody had ever hoped, dreamed, or wished for…every war, every famine, every crisis, every human being that ever lived, and animal and living thing that we knew of, was all contained in that one picture, except for one person. And that was the one human being taking that picture from the Lunar Orbiter. And that’s very humbling, because then you realize, you know, wow, we really are all in this together. And, you know, for better for worse, we’re family, we’re a community. And those are the two pictures. I would recommend people take a look at those. For me, that was very impactful. You know, they say a picture’s worth a thousand words. Well, in this case, a picture’s worth five billion people. Pretty interesting.

    CJ: Let me play with that, if I can do so for a little bit and let me see if I can say this. I haven’t articulated this out loud. There are some YouTube videos that show the vastness of space, how immense it is, you just keep zooming out and out and out, and outward. And then some people feel dread and meaninglessness. But, to me that seems like a relic of territorial domination, when we used to tell a country’s power or stature from how much it owned? Because what difference does it make if we’re 1% of 1% of 1%, spatially or temporally of the galaxy? All of what matters, maybe that’s not what matters at all, maybe space and time and being located in it, isn’t what matters. If it was, then we could go to the Holocaust and say, “Well, it doesn’t matter because look at how small of a region it is, and how temporally bounded it was,” and say, “so it doesn’t matter.” But it matters. The birth of your daughter matters, the death of your son matters, every single thing that matters, is bounded, temporally and spatially. So perhaps what matters most isn’t how much space do we take up, but maybe it’s our heart, maybe it’s our capacity for pain, maybe it’s the ability to show love, despite being hurt, and to trust again? Maybe that all from another realm is something it’s huge, maybe it’s vastly huge in the way that we look at ourselves as small, maybe it’s huge. And to make an analogy in the realm of consciousness, if it’s a space, like space and time. But we don’t know. And in fact, all that we do know is what matters isn’t…like, your favorite piece of music is not, it’s only three or four or five or ten minutes long. It’s not an infinite amount of time.

    Lue: Well, Curt, the value of the human being, again, may not be what’s up in here (points to his head), and the body, it may be that that piece that we talked about before, right? That that indelible part of the human that is hard to define. Whether you call it a spirit or whatever you want to call it, you know, a soul. You’re right. I think there’s…that’s the value of a human being. It’s not that $2.03 worth of carbon that my body is worth or the nine pounds or so of my brain. Or maybe, in my case, much less weight (laughs). But there’s something else that creates the value for a human being. But I’ve said this before, and let me reiterate this for anybody who hasn’t heard this yet: We talk about the human being occupying this small moment of space in this infinitely vast, you know, 92 billion light-year Universe, across from side to side. And yet, and yet, within every single human being, Curt, is almost an equal amount of space. What do I mean? Well, let’s look at an atom. One times 10 to the negative 26. When you compare that to the human body, we are that universe, we are that vastness, we are to the atom, we are the Universe, and we are just as big.

    CJ: Interesting, interesting, right.

    Lue: And so, we really sit right in the middle of the scale of the Universe. And that’s important because it as big as the Universe outside is, it’s just as big inside. And we’re just now beginning to explore the realities of that and what that means. And so, you know, there’s beauty in that. But, of course, for a lot of people, there’s a lot of discomfort, right? And uncertainty, right? And insecurity. So yeah, I get it, man. I understand it’s one of those things that, ultimately we’re wrestling ourselves. Why are we so insecure? And why does this topic make us so insecure? Well, because we’re forced to look in the mirror and question ourselves, and reconcile the fact that we really don’t know where we are and we really don’t know where we’re going. Despite the best and the brightest in our governments that we appoint and say, “Yes, we are giving you the authority to tell us things,” right? But in reality, it’s kind of an illusion. It’s just like money. The only reason why money means anything is because we’ve all made a moral contract to agree that yes, it’s valued. But it doesn’t really have value, it’s a piece of paper. There’s no real intrinsic value behind it, other than we’ve all agreed to the illusion that yeah, it means something. Well, it’s the same thing with governments and authority and some religions that we have invested this authority to tell us, as a species, give us answers, give us meaning, right?

    CJ: So you think those at the top feel insecure that they may not have the answers?

    Lue: Oh, well, they don’t. A lot of them don’t have the answers. It’s not that they don’t feel…we know they don’t. And I think if they were to be true to themselves, they know they don’t (laughs). You know? I mean, look at politicians.

    CJ: Do you think they do? Do you think that they think that they have the answers, or do you feel like they know they don’t?

    Lue: I don’t think they think deep enough to even recognize it. I think they think they have answers for the paradigm for which they are living in. They don’t understand that there’s a much bigger reality there. For their little reality that’s been conceived and painted for them, yes they’re coloring within the boundaries of the lines. It’s like me when I take notes in this book, you know I’m confining my notes only to the boundaries of the paper, right? That’s all I can have to write with. Some people have bigger paper…

    CJ: Are those notes classified and you just revealed some classified…?

    Lue: No. No, no, no, never classified.

    CJ: Screenshot that and zoom in (both laugh).

    Lue: I think, you know, that’s…for me. You know, I look at it that way. Some people just have a bigger notepad to write notes. You know, but maybe we get to a point where we realize that even that we need a notepad is – now I’m getting very esoteric – and maybe the fact that we’re even using a notepad is limiting us.

    CJ: The limitations of language?

    Lue: Maybe the key here is that, you know, maybe we need to get rid of notepads altogether. It doesn’t matter how big of a notepad you have because, you know, you’re never going to be able to contain all the information in a notepad.

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    CJ: That’s one of the claims of Añjali, is that we need to get past the limitations of language, for whatever reason the aliens have told her this, and that we need to start communicating telepathically or realize the limitations of language. Just as an aside.

    Lue: Well, I’m not sure you need aliens to tell you that. I think that’s something age-old man has known for a long time. You know, that old cliche, right? Well, I love you beyond words. Well, what does that mean? We’re limited by language. Language is the closest we can get, right now, to reading each other’s minds, but, at the end of the day, we’re still limited. But I definitely don’t need aliens, necessarily, to tell me that, that’s just kind of a reality for us, I think.

    CJ:  Kevin asked: Given the clues, Lue, DeLonge and others have been laying down, it seems like we’re dealing with cryptoterrestrials, not necessarily aliens. Is this what Admiral Byrd found during Operation Highjump?

    Lue: It’s absolutely possible that this is something that’s been on this planet for a very long time. And it’s just as natural to Earth as we are. It could very well be its own, you know, crazy as this may sound, could be its own animal kingdom, just like the hidden world of protozoa and whatnot of the microorganisms and that animal kingdom that was invisible to us until just a couple 100 years ago. Could be, you know? The likelihood of it, I don’t really know, but it’s def…I mean, it is a possibility, you can’t say no.

    CJ: Umix asks: Can you ask them about Project Crystal Knight, aka Project Serpo, which was featured at the end of Steven Spielberg’s Close Encounters? (It wasn’t featured at the end of Close Encounters. That scene showed military folks (who had apparently been abducted/taken decades earlier) being returned by the aliens, without showing any signs of aging. ~Joe)

    Lue: I am not familiar enough with it to speak in any type of authoritative way. It’d be pure speculation, so I’ll leave it, unfortunately. I wish I could answer it for you.

    CJ: Matt asks: Have you, Lue, had any holy shit moments, where you learned a truth about something so over the top that it wasn’t even on your question list? Speaking of question lists.

    Lue: Oh yeah (and then he laughs). Yeah.

    CJ: Okay, let me continue then, so you have more to riff off of. How many times have extraordinary revelations occurred to you as you were learning about this phenomenon?

    Lue: So, as it relates to UAP, there were a few. I’m beginning to put my thoughts down on paper. There were quite a few. And, you know, each time it challenged my perspective on things, it challenged my understanding of the Universe and our place in it. But not quite yet prepared to have that conversation. But I will have it at some point.

    CJ: Did you ever lose sleep over it?

    Lue: All the time.

    CJ: Gus asks: If Lue is under NDA, how can he write a book with new and definitive information regarding the UAP phenomenon? I don’t think this question is meant to be snarky at all, I think it’s genuine

    Lue: Yeah. It’s gotta go through a security-review process and my intent is to put everything I can down there and then whatever the government decides…no different than Lacatski. Whatever the government decides to redact, and you’re going to know what parts are redacted and what parts are not. And, you know, you gotta try, but it’s not my call, I’ve got to get it reviewed. So, how can I? Well, I can by going through the right processes, and that’s how you do it. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do it, so I intend to do it the right way.

    CJ: How long does that process take, when you give them a book and then you have to…

    LE: Well, it’s not up to me. It can be a while, but that’s what I’m gonna do. And I’ve got a great partnership with Harper Collins, who is willing to take this journey, so. And by the way, there’ll be a very specific reason, very obvious, when that book comes out. A lot of people are making presumptions and assumptions of my motivation. They haven’t a clue. They have no clue what I’m doing. It’ll be very clear.

    CJ: What will be obvious?

    Lue: It will be crystal clear of why I’m writing this book, when it comes out. People are gonna go, “Oh, wow!” So…

    CJ:  Jesus is the Light asks: One question for Lue. I’ve never heard this one asked: If UAPs are trying to prevent us from nuclear war that supposedly may happen in the future – now this is predicated on the future-human hypothesis – when was this supposed to take place? Is it less than 10 years from now? Obviously, we’re in wild, speculative territory.

    Lue: Yeah. I mean, we don’t know they’re trying to prevent a nuclear war. That’s, again, a presumption by some people. Let’s not forget that, in Russia, they actually turn them on. So that, you know, I don’t know if that’s preventing a nuclear war. And by the way, if that’s the case, they didn’t prevent us dropping a bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So, you know, there’s already flawed logic there that they’re trying to prevent anything. We don’t know that. We are presuming. So, we need to be very careful with that. As far as any type of future war? Your guess is as good as mine. That’s a whole different territory that I’m definitely not qualified to answer.

    CJ: Okay, this is a question that I’ve thought about. Wiley Lafferty asks: Who are the government people that come to confiscate cameras and data, threatening witnesses to remain silent about their experience? This has happened to military and civilian witnesses. He says, “AATIP?”

    Lue No, it wasn’t AATIP. I mean, no, it wasn’t AATIP. But yeah, there were people who definitely tried to intimidate people. And, you know, all I gotta say is that wouldn’t be wise to do it with me and my colleagues. I don’t get intimidated very easily. You know, we’re kind of the people who, if you poke us, we’re gonna poke you right back. I don’t know why people got intimidated in the past. The only way I would ever shut up from this, is if someone really came in and said, “Lue, we need you to be quiet, this is hurting national security.” But that hasn’t happened. I’m the kind of guy, if you try to intimidate me, you’re making a big, big mistake. And I’ll leave it at that. Because, my background is specific enough where you better come at me with everything you got.

    CJ: Is there any truth to Men In Black?

    Lue: Well, I mean, sure. The question is: Who are they? You know, there’s been elements in the past where U.S. investigators…I mean, the truth is, we wear black suits sometimes. I mean, I have three of them, you know? The problem is that Hollywood has kind of portrayed it a certain way. For us, you know, black suits were fairly functional. Look, I mean, this is gonna sound silly, but you wear them because they’re like wearing jeans but formal attire because you can spill food on black suits and all that kind of stuff and kind of wipe it away and you know, it’s a little bit more forgiving than another type of suit. So, and historically tend to be more of the cheaper suits, just because they’re black, they’re not really fancy material or stuff like that. So, historically, black suits have always been synonymous with government and what people refer to us as government stiffs. There’s always been Men In Black, I was one of them. I was a counterintelligence special agent, but I never intimidated people like that. And so the question is: Who’s doing that, and why are they doing that and under whose authority are they doing that? That’s my problem. If they’re operating without any authority, then, you know, you’ve got problems, because we had to all operate under rules and authorities and if you’re not, and you’re running rogue and you’re going around intimidating people, you know? I can’t stand bullies, man. I don’t like bullies. I’m not that guy. Anybody who knows about the way I was raised and what I had to go through, you know, I tend to be a bit of an anti-bully. I tend to try to… (laughs)

    CJ: Bully the bullies?

    Lue: Yeah, you know, that’s kind of…

    CJ: Or put the bullies in their place?

    Lue: Yeah. They weren’t going to be bullies much longer, I can assure you. I’d love to keep talking about this, I had a fantastic time with your folks. Hopefully, I didn’t waste anybody’s time. I know you’re gonna get people saying, “Oh, Lue didn’t answer my question and Lue avoided this and that.” I’m sorry in advance, they’re going to do it. They got some haters, they’re gonna nail you on it. But, you know, I’d love to do this again with you and if there’s anything I haven’t addressed, let’s do it next time.

    ~~

    This was Lue’s answer to Richard Dolan on May 20th, 2021, when asked about intimidation.

    Richad Dolan: So, I believe that you have said in interviews – and this is going off ofI’m not exactly 100% sure, but I’m pretty sure that you might have said – that someone mysterious and unidentified from elsewhere in the DoD beat you to the punch a couple of times, collecting records of radar or optic data, or electronic data, or even physical debris as evidence of UAP encounters, before you got there to investigate. Now, the fact is, if you did say thatthat M.O. is identical to what Project Blue Book investigators, years and years ago, said many times. So who were these agents? Where do they get the authority to supersede yours, if this happened? I mean, your authority came directly from the Secretary of Defense, so how would that have been the case? And, I’m wondering, what might have been reported in the interactions with these beings when youI’m trying to think how I want to ask this. Do you have any evidence that these operatives were in factwhat can you say about this?

    Lue: I will tell you that, in my experience, there were some elements that were interfering with our capabilities to collect and analyze data and information. This kind of goes to the whole, I guess, the speculation of some sort of secret government society or Men in Black or whatnot. I haven’t had any encounters. Now, I will say without going into much detail, I did have a very, at one point, a very close colleague of mine, that told me emphatically that that body exists but I haven’t had any encounters and I suspect if it does exist

    RD: Wait, that there’s a mysterious like, let’s say, quasi, Men In Black-type organization that is out there that is acquiring UFO data?

    Lue: You can call it whatever you want. Another organization that’s doing some type of similar work and maybe on the black side of the house, black operations. I don’t want to feed any more conspiracy theories because, frankly, I don’t really know. But I did have a colleague share with me that they were convinced that there was an element within the government that did do that type of stuff and would intimidate people. I haven’t had any personal experience. It’s probably because either, oneI’m considered too reckless and they know that I would completely and probably, if they came into my front door, I’d shut the door behind him and try to interrogate them. Or, I’m too stupid. Maybe I’m too much of a loose cannon, possibly, maybe. I don’t know why. If there is that secret organization, again, I’ve never come across them, they’ve never tried to intimidate me, personally. But again, that that could just be because maybe I’m not worth their time? If it does exist.

    [End Excerpt]

    ~~~

    CJ: Thank you, man, I appreciate your generosity, again, immense generosity. And as well as for what you’re doing.

    Lue: Well, and I appreciate what you’re doing, and I appreciate what your audience is doing because you guys are making the difference. You know, you keep asking me, what can you do? You’re doing it. This is exactly what you can do, and you’re doing it better than anybody else. So, thank you.

    CJ: Until next time.

    ~~~

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